Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...

21 Oct 2015

      I am sorry you feel my beliefs are incredible.  I wasn't aware this was a 
debate, per se.  Rather i was offering an opinion, with as many sources to 
back what I say as possible.  We all have opinions, and I am welcome to 
mine.  Regardless how incredible you feel it to be.  But, if you read all 
the complaints on the various lists about the difficulty of finding 
employment for blind applicants, the conclusion is not difficult to draw. 
If you read, also, the economy is dire, and that unemployment statistics are 
so high among sighted job applicants.  Is it any wonder the more competition 
we face as blind job applicants restricts our employment prospects further 
than it might with less competition from sighted aplicants.   When I 
graduated from University, and prior, there were blind attorneys.  I went to 
school with a blind black man, and racial discrimination was more blatant 
then than it seems to be now.  Though, should you ask my black sighted 
children, it still exists.  Who became a well respect attorney in my city. 
So, then, it was understood, the cream of blind students rose to higher 
academic levels.  Regardless the lack of assistance and the discouragement 
from those sighted around them.

An example coming to mind immediately is that of doctor Jacob Bolotin
https://nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm08/bm0801/bm080105.htm
"Growing up in Chicago, Rosalind Perlman had heard about the blind doctor, 
known throughout her city and around the world. When she married Alfred 
Perlman, she learned much more. Alfred and his mother (Jacob Bolotin's 
sister) had lived with the renowned doctor for a significant part of 
Perlman's childhood and adolescence. To him the legendary blind doctor was 
an uncle, a father, a hero. It is thanks to the Perlmans that his story has 
finally been told and, in reading it, it is hard to know which is more 
remarkable: the life of Jacob Bolotin or the fact that it has been such 
hidden history for so long.

If you've ever wondered how blind people managed before there were talking 
computers or Braille notetakers or offices for students with disabilities, 
Dr. Bolotin's story will require that you stretch your imagination much, 
much further than, say, my own memories of schlepping a portable typewriter 
across campus to take an exam. Jacob Bolotin, who would become the first 
congenitally blind person to attend medical school and be a licensed 
physician in this country, was born in 1888. That means, in other words, 
that he was learning to read in the nineteenth century. It means that he 
lived in a time before we had programs to teach blind people cane travel, 
before we had tape recorders or Perkins Braillers or talking books. What he 
did have was a strong and loving family, a superb intellect, and a cache of 
perseverance rarely witnessed.

Bolotin's parents were Jewish immigrants from Poland. Jacob was the seventh 
child in the family and the third of those seven to be born blind. He and 
his brother Fred were taken to the state school for the blind in Illinois 
(interestingly, no mention is made of any education for their blind sister). 
Perlman characterizes Bolotin as not only an excellent student, but one with 
extraordinarily heightened senses�reading Braille through three 
handkerchiefs, for example, and recognizing other people by smell. The real 
story begins, however, after his valedictorian speech and graduation from 
the school at age fourteen.

With his own improvised cane travel techniques, Bolotin traveled the network 
of streetcars throughout Chicago, selling first brushes, and later 
typewriters. At sixteen he was called into the president's office to be 
congratulated for being one of the best typewriter salesmen in the company.

His brilliance as a physician, however, was recognized by patients and other 
physicians long before he took his rightful place in the medical community. 
Even after working for months as a volunteer physician in a facility for 
tuberculosis patients, he was not hired by that institution. Patients loved 
him, and doctors frequently called upon him for consultation, but his 
blindness was repeatedly waved as an excuse for not paying him for his 
services.

Eventually, however, Dr. Jacob Bolotin grew to be a renowned heart and lung 
specialist, not only throughout Chicago, but in places around the world. 
When he addressed a medical convention as a favor to a friend, his talent 
for speaking also became legendary. Reading excerpts from his speeches is 
astonishing. The philosophy and sentiments are in complete accord with the 
words of leaders in the blindness movement almost a century later. Listen, 
for instance, to his comments as quoted in the Chicago Tribune, when that 
newspaper ran a sensational article about the blind man about to become a 
licensed physician:

"Well, is there anything so remarkable about it? Because a man has no eyes, 
is it any sign that he hasn't any brains? That is the trouble with the world 
and the blind man. All the blind man asks is fair play. Give him an equal 
chance without prejudice, and he generally manages to hold his own with his 
more fortunate colleagues."

Jacob Bolotin died in 1924, at the young age of thirty-six. He seems to have 
literally worked himself to death--maintaining such a rigorous schedule of 
seeing patients and giving speeches that his body wore out. Five thousand 
people came to his funeral--and yet, were it not for a loving nephew and his 
wife, Alfred and Rosalind Perlman, Dr. Bolotin's story might well have been 
lost to us all.
By the way, there isn't a thing wrong with piano tuning."  Just the other 
week, one of the students for whom I work at our local community college was 
requesting where he might find a competent piano tuner.  Such are rare these 
days.  In the 1930's to the 1950's, though you might not like to read it, my 
late husbands totally blind black aunt, who sold sundries on the streets of 
the city in which I live, made enough money to hire a permanent sighted 
companion.  To read to her, and to  drive, and to do other things necessary 
for her to be successful as a blind woman living in the midst of the "great 
depression".  When there weren't government supports under girding our 
successful achievement.  doctor Helen Keller hired Anne Sullivan, or was 
otherwise directly responsible for her support long before there was 
government assistance for us blind people to exist.  Early 20th century 
blind recording artists, such as Blind Lemon Jefferson,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Lemon_Jefferson also did quite well for
themselves.  Employing sighted people to do for them what, in most cases, is 
done for us by technology.  Also, how much work, which is outsourced to 
other countries, such as the manufacturing of the I-Phones carried by many 
blind people is made using methods previously employed by sheltered 
workshops. for just about the same wage which use to be paid to sheltered 
workshop  workers in days gone by.  There are not many blind people 
disparaging the employment of people for slave wages refusing  to use a 
device proudly marked, "made in China".  So such employment should not be 
spoken of disparagingly.  Not when the modern individual employment plan for 
blind job seekers drawn by rehabilitation counselors eliminates altogether 
the word "gainful" employment from the document drawn.
Original Message ----- 
From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
...
Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went 
to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to 
college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't.
I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to 
get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. 
It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning 
pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete 
for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete 
for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even 
if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, 
that would hurt blind people most of all.
PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to 
get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's 
not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any 
rational person would believe that.
On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
...
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college.  I said, because
there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel
to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those
degrees must follow.  To accommodate those with lesser academic
proficiencies to graduate successfully.  To get the grants and loans
issuing from government and other lending institutions.  It can't be
automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished
as they use to be.  That is why higher degrees are required now to do
the same jobs  which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no
degrees at all.    Now people with post graduate degrees are required to
do those same jobs  persons with under graduate degrees did most
adequately 50 years ago.  My second grade teacher herself never attended
high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than
an under graduate degree.    I was in the final class she taught prior
to her mandatory retirement.  She was Robert Irwin's teaching
apprentice.  I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she
was 16 years old in 1910.  Now, in order to teach second grade blind
students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I
suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the
mere basics to second grade students.  This is why it can't be naturally
assumed people holding  under graduate degrees now are competent,
whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and
why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was.  In days
past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of
higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his
intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student
disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school
level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the
employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills
necessary to solve whatever problems were given us.  Else we wouldn't
have the degree in the first place.  If just anyone who can get a grant
or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges
who graduate from the same institutions?  Which is why we have to go to
such effort  to prove our job worthiness to potential employers.  Who,
perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them.  Blind
people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities.
It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard.  With so
many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind
graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially
suited for the placement?  When I graduated nearly a half century ago,
when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us
challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we
were successful graduates.  Also, there were fewer college graduates
competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message
----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know
where to start.  But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just
going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic
standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't
bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is
true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the
premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
...
That is my point exactly.  If all are expected to make themselves serfs
to the government or financial institutions providing for them college
loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic
standards to be maintained.  As not all students are capable of
maintaining such standards.  Even the modern SAT scores are lower than
they were a half century ago.  When I took the college entrance exam.
There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth
grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the
society of that day.  After that grade was completed all further
education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge
required to live a productive life.  Now days such isn't achieved till
one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in 
most
colleges and universities.  President Truman only had a high school
education.  How many people graduating from high school these days 
could
even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored
by wealthy patrons.  It can't be done today without at least a post
graduate degree or two.  Even Donald Trump has an under graduate 
degree,
and he isn't even president yet.  When high school diplomas were rarer
than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy
was of better quality than it is today.  An example of an average 1895
eighth grade examination  to prove my point follows.  If it were 
updated
to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college
graduates would be able to pass it I ask?  Without the internet to
assist them every step of the way.  There was no internet  in 1895. 
The
more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be
our young people.    The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous
were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White,
Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored
by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style".  Which teaches so succinctly the
basics of grammar.  From which we were each so fortunate to learn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White
The totally blind Robert Irwin.  Who  created, and developed the idea 
of
mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms.  Graduating from
Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every
community college in the country.
http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc.
and doctor Helen Keller.  Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to
graduate from Wellesley.    For that matter, how many totally blind
youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the
achievements of a Louis Braille.  Who developed a system of reading and
writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over.
Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and
reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825.  Or an Abraham Nemeth.
Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind
student.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth
  Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them.  Which proves my
point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind
and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was
decades ago.  Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does
sighted ones.  Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated
by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time,  our academic
prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers.
If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to
achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to
get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better 
for
those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the
quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges.    The
more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is
its quality.  Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating
from  the lower levels of academe.  Because with today's attitudes
toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or
it isn't, standards are lowered  all the way around.
The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA 
.
It was taken from the original document on file
at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and
reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no 
modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of
'lie,''play,' and 'run.'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that 
you
understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many
bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at
50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary 
levy
to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for
incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20
per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of
which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas .
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln ,
Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800,
1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour)   [
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy,
etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph,
subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.'
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two 
exceptions
under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi,
dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name
the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell,
rise, blood,
fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane,
fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation
by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver ,
Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and
Orinoco ..
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same
latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the
sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the
earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school.
After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder
for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to
do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read,
it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually,
the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
...
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are
cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in
decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college
degree.  That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools
available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and
there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools.  Jobs
are fewer as well for degreed people.  As there are more graduates
seeking them.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim"
<jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
> Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too
> many people going to college.  That is the stupidest thing I've ever
> heard. Sheesh!
>
> On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
>> Scott,
>>
>> It is a shame.
>>
>> But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a
>> college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high
>> schools to get everyone into college without helping students
>> understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many
>> other factors.
>>
>> In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to
>> college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you
>> less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
>>
>> On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create
>> your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using
>> Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that
>> the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are
>> ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people,
>> and then, having done that, to get noticed.
>>
>> Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college
>> degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk
>> in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when 
>> interviewing.
>>
>> On Saturday, 17 October 2015,  9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados
>> <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m
>>> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten.  I’ve seen
>>> this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in
>>> different environments but wow.:)
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish
>>>>> yourself
>>>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
>>>> Lol.
>>>>
>>>> That guy helping his grandmother has:
>>>>
>>>> * shown initiative
>>>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service
>>>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
>>>>
>>>> The person who just has a degree has:
>>>>
>>>> * drunk beer
>>>> * screwed around
>>>> * spent a lot of someone else's money
>>>>
>>>> Which one is going to help the business more?
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015,  2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim
>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have
>>>>> experience.
>>>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a
>>>>> degree after a
>>>>> certain level.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President
>>>>> of IAVIT,
>>>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There
>>>>> are a
>>>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information
>>>>> technologists.
>>>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers
>>>>> himself an IT
>>>>> guy.  If you don't have a degree, how are you going to
>>>>> distinguish yourself
>>>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another
>>>>> way is to be
>>>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using
>>>>> stone knives
>>>>> and bearskins.  But, first of all, now you're counting on the
>>>>> guy who is
>>>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose
>>>>> you're not a
>>>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like,
>>>>> "Bachelors
>>>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience
>>>>> required"? That
>>>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot
>>>>> of want ads.
>>>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we
>>>>> all know, the
>>>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This
>>>>> problem is so
>>>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT
>>>>> Tech and
>>>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads.  "They want
>>>>> experience but
>>>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
>>>>>
>>>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT
>>>>> managers
>>>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By
>>>>> your second
>>>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there
>>>>> are some
>>>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is
>>>>> absolutely
>>>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job
>>>>> market if you
>>>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of
>>>>> the best in
>>>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action
>>>>> employers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when
>>>>>> it comes to education.  My experience more mirrors that of Will
>>>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen
>>>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose it depends on the job.  I can see why universities
>>>>>> would demand such a thing.  I don’t even have an education
>>>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section.  Nobody
>>>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my
>>>>>> resume.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting how these things Vary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim
>>>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As
>>>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually
>>>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is
>>>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in
>>>>>>> this message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of
>>>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is
>>>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it
>>>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it
>>>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job
>>>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of
>>>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a
>>>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for
>>>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down
>>>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities
>>>>>>> (like Massachusetts).  I talked to an HR manager here in
>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses
>>>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She
>>>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down
>>>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications.
>>>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer
>>>>>>> security, for example, witho
>>>>> u
>>>>> t a CISSP.
>>>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is
>>>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a
>>>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate
>>>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble
>>>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that
>>>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind
>>>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind
>>>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's
>>>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they
>>>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my
>>>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people
>>>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the
>>>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met
>>>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think
>>>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person
>>>>>>> can't do the job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a
>>>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will
>>>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like
>>>>>>> him.  The most important thing in an interview is getting the
>>>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a
>>>>>>> disadvantage there.  First of all, some people are
>>>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of
>>>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues
>>>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you
>>>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have
>>>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social
>>>>>>> skills they need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and
>>>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job,
>>>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot
>>>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social
>>>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job
>>>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your
>>>>>>> odds if you are blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
>>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
>>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim,
>>>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>>>> --
>>>> Will Estes
>>>> westes575@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blind-sysadmins mailing list
> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
>
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
--
John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim,
sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- 
John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, 
sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________
Blind-sysadmins mailing list
Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins