You make a very good point, Darragh. It would help immensely if screen reader developers would state why their applications cannot access specific issues, and your example below is an excellent case in point. How long would it actually take to label those buttons - probably minutes? I'm aware of course that any changes do mean a complete test schedule. However, it programmers would simply get into the habit of labelling buttons as a matter of course...... 'nuff said. George -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: 31 May 2013 15:38 To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] SCCM 2012. Well Mika, and everyone on the list. I had a very interesting conversation with someone who will remain nameless earlier. I made the point that there is a very damaging perception out there in the Jaws community that when an application isn't accessible it's the fault of Jaws. I argued dstrongly that FreedomScientific should start drawing a line between problems that they solve and cant solve in Microsoft software. I give you the following examples to demonstrate my point. 1. Metro apps don't support first letter navigation. 2. The Skype metro app has unlabeled buttons. 3. There is no search field in the people screen in Windows 8. FreedomScientific know what side their bread is buttered of course so they simply cant afford to get on the bad side of Microsoft so their fighting a war on two fronts. I wouldn't envy them this task. However, a running snag list of problems that they simply cant solve in various applications would highlight the limitations of the applications that assistive software cant hook into. The user base could then hit various companies over the head with it. I would say that 90% of the problemm with the lack of assistive technologies is a lack of awareness in the software development community. It's certainly not a concious decision to make something that doesn't work properly for all users. Now, of course, I know this idea is going to be raised within FS but I also know that that's all it's ever going to be. A quick side note in some meeting adgenta. I'm not sure how we as users can determine this snag list but I think the responsibility is up to us. So. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I know that getting the average user to submit a problem report to a big company like Microsoft is all but impossible. Giving them something that's pre-written and giving them the specific address to write to is almost always the most effective way of making this happen. I'm interested in others though'ts regarding this. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: Mika Pyyhkala <Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org> To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>, Date: 31/05/2013 15:19 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] SCCM 2012. Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Hello Darragh and Others, We are also increasingly using and ramping up SCCM, so I'm pleased to learn of this news and would also appreciate any updates. I can help with reporting issues to FS, Darragh, I can perhaps write you off the list to get a better description for a report. Also let us know if you need us to submit feedback to Microsoft or even to help raise awareness that screen reader users are actually using tools like SCCM. Best, Mika Pyyhkala IT Department Neighborhood Health Plan - a Partenrs Health Care Organization -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [ mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:08 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] SCCM 2012. Darragh: This is really cool news. Thanks a lot for your work on this. Do you know when we can expect this update to come out? I recently went through a role change at work as well, I am no longer responsible for any VMware at work, and I think System Center products will become a bigger part of my job description, so the news that Microsoft is willing to work with us is very good. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [ mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 3:13 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] SCCM 2012. Good morning / Afternoon / evening / night depending on where you are in the world. I am delighted to report that the soon to be released update to sCCM 2012 SP1 includes a large number of accessibility fixes. I have been working with Microsoft from a few different angles over the past four months and they've been providing me with a number of very progressive private builds to test. You should however be aware that I have also strongly voiced my belief to FreedomScientific that Jaws 14 has major problems with working in .net 4.5 controls. I have provided them with various examples from applications made by Microsoft and a number of other companies but I haven't received a response from Bryan or Eric and John Carson doesn't seem to be taking the issue very seriously. In my experience, Jaws has very little time to get it's act together before these controls become much more widespread. I am encountering them because I'm working on a number of very new releases but fortunately for them, the majority of their user base hasn't encountered any of them yet. They have some breathing space here but I don't think their going to act until it's too late. The reason that I mention it here is that in SCCM there are a number of these new controls. For example, certain tree views and tables in SCCM won't speak properly. It's nothing that the sCCM developers can fi x. Jaws reads the ID of the control and not the contents. I expect it's something that has been changed in UIA that hasn't been captured by Jaws yet. I encourage you to always submit any problem you encounter with Jaws to support@freedomscientific.com and CC half the world in your report. There is a small minority of us that actively provide them with feedback. Far too many problems go unfixed because FS haven't heard from enough users to justify spending time on some of the less known bugs. In faireness, this isn't Freedomscientific's fault. It is the responsibility of the users to provide feedback. As luck would have it, a week before I am planning to leave this job to start with a new employre and a very different role Microsoft provide me with a much improved build of SCCM! It looks like I'm taking a step away from the system administration type role for the moment and going into a software development and managerial role. I managed a team of 19 people on a 24/7 team for a year six years ago and I hated every minute of it. Now, I'll be managing 3 software developers in support roles so it should be a very different experience. It has meant that I've been cramming on Visual studio, SQL, IIS and all of the related tools such as resharper, SQL profiler, SQL optomization tools etc. Regards Darragh H iligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas r omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais... _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. 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