That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows: 1895 FINAL EXAM This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal. 8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865. Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth. Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish > yourself > from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have > experience. > No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree > after a > certain level. > > I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of > IAVIT, > I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are > a > gazillion people out there calling themselves information > technologists. > Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself > an IT > guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish > yourself > from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way > is to be > a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using > stone knives > and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy > who is > interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose > you're not a > genius? Suppose you're just above average? > > Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, > "Bachelors > in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? > That > basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of > want ads. > You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all > know, the > problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem > is so > familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and > University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want > experience but > how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" > > A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers > consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your > second > or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are > some > jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is > absolutely > required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market > if you > don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the > best in > the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers. > > > > On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it >> comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where >> a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with >> Harvard degrees get laughed at. >> >> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would >> demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my >> resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in >> 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. >> >> Interesting how these things Vary. >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>> President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired >>> Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've >>> studied a great deal. More on that later in this message. >>> >>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to >>> overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, >>> sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you >>> won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many >>> universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you >>> have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas >>> where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I >>> talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said >>> that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a >>> college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way >>> to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some >>> certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in >>> computer security, for example, witho > u > t a CISSP. >>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring >>> decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not >>> hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, >>> after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't >>> understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers >>> assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to >>> replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of >>> the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't >>> do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted >>> people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with >>> the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're >>> not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the >>> job. >>> >>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook >>> huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The >>> most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to >>> like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of >>> all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, >>> a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the >>> visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl >>> when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people >>> have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>> skills they need. >>> >>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only >>> with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just >>> harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How >>> good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of >>> luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have >>> to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> > -- > John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, > sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
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