Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature
in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.
I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like
Darragh, for the most part I agree with you. I really think there's two very different use cases being talked about here. Case 1 is an application like Office, Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc. that is either well designed out of the box or well supported by the screen reader. In this case, it's a well tested application, everyone either knows how to use it or can easily find documentation on how to use it with the screen reader, and can move forward. Case 2 is an application that is basically slapped in front of you, there's no scripts or customizations for the screen reader, and you're basically on your own to explore it and get up to speed with it. A screen reader that's great at case 1 might not be so great at case 2 and the reverse. The tools needed and the approaches taken are very different. I personally think Voiceover on the Mac is really good for the second use case and not so much for the first use case. It totally depends on what your needs as a computer user are. I personally do think Microsoft should be commiting more to accessibility than they are. I've played with the Windows 8 preview, and Narrator is miles ahead of where it is in Windows 7, but I still wouldn't rely on it as a screen reader. I'd personally like to see Narrator get to a place where it could compete, even though Microsoft hasn't been doing assistive technology for years they have something to contribute. Honestly they know the platform, and they know where the platform's going. I sometimes think that things are changing so fast its getting harder for the assistive companies to adapt, and they've got their userbase using the older software and they're happy with that, so there's not the biggest push to adapt. I challenge the industry to have metro style applications totally accessible on day one of Windows 8's release. I don't think it will happen, as most blind people wouldn't push for Metro apps to be accessible, so why as an assistive tech company would you get the resources to work on something that isn't in demand? Microsoft, on the other hand, I think would have a better chance of doing so, just like Apple does, because its their platform and so its in their best interest to make sure it works properly with the accessibility software. When Mac OSX Lion came out and if it wasn't accessible out of the box like Snow Leopard was, imagine what blind users would be saying, in comparison to the Windows 8 example above. So what's a happy medium? I don't know. I've wondered sometime about Microsoft buying out one of the assistive tech vendors and using their technology and experience and combining with Microsoft's resources and knowledge of the platform. That could go many ways and I don't see Microsoft doing that honestly as most blind people would be scared out of their witts if that happened. And honestly, let's just face it here. Perhaps, for whatever reason, Apple places a higher value on accessibility than Microsoft. Strange, but possible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:11 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 I would like to think I'm quite impartial when it comes to screen readers. I am mainly a Jaws user however I also use Window eyes, Orca in Linux, Speakup, also in Linux, Voice over on the Mac and iPhone / iPad I see benefits in each of them but they all have good points that I wish the others had. I completely agree with the arguement that Microsoft should enhance their narator to be on par with Voiceover but I don't agree for a moment that FreedomScientific and GWMicro have no place in the market. That's frankly just silly. FreedomScientific and GWMicro are required because they'll generate competition when Microsoft finally get around to including better accessibility in Windows. I firmly believe that they will also continue to be leaders in their field because very simply, they've been doing it for longer. They have a lot more experience and one thing that I agree that I have heard Eric Damery from FreedomScientific say from time to time. Jaws has come out of the relm of making aplications accessible and into the relm of making applications usable and efficient. This is so true and it doesn't just apply to Jaws. Let me give you an example. Voiceover is brilliant but there's no way that anyone can say that it gives as much information automatically as Jaws or Window eyes. For example. When a window is presented and notifications are given somewhere, Jaws and Window Eyes have scripts and functionality to have that text read automatically. This is a simple example of how these two applications are more market driven than voiceover. As I said before, Voiceover has features that I wish Jaws, Window eyes and Orca had but the reality is that Jaws, Window Eyes and to an extent even Orca are more driven by user needs and have more experience in the assistive technology space than the apple developers for Voiceover. I fully understand that users have problems with things that FreedomScientific have done in the past and I've been there and I've shouted louder than most people. In saying that, I've also been helped by FreedomScientific and their I just cant thank them enough for their flexability over the past while. I have written hundreds of paragraphs condemning both freedomScientific and GWMicro for their lack of inovation over the past few years but credit where credit is due. The conveenient OCR in Jaws 13 and the new remote assistance support in the latest version of Window eyes are features that users need. I don't see Microsoft providing that same level of support, accessibility or usability. So. Please be careful what you wish for. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@gmail.com> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: 19/09/2011 18:11 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" <scott@granados-llc.net> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 like that
model a lot better.
-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8
The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.
I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.
It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.
I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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