I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely,   Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog:  http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site:  http://www.ceektechnology.com WM:                chrismcmillan@ceektech.com  or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail:            chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for them. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML. As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me. I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies. Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above.

Andrew: Very good points. The explanations I've gotten from the AT vendors I've talked to is that there simply aren't enough blind people using these complex systems to warrant them putting the development resources into making them work. I honestly don't fully buy that, I think many, certainly not all but many, AT vendors don't have the inhouse expertise to understand these systems themselves. The IT environment in many AT vendor shops is simple. That goes for both screen reader/magnifier vendors as well as the companies who provide value added services. I'm trying to get some scripts written to make my use of Window-Eyes with some systems a little easier. The company I went with, a fairly big one in the US, hadn't heard of half the stuff we used, even the more common stuff such as, oh, VMWare ESX and Backup Exec. In all fairness they have made a good effort to do the best they could, but still the lack of expertise in these systems did sometimes hamper the process. I get that most of these companies are small and don't have the resources larger firms do. But, I maintain that if you can get around using some of these products, it takes some of the urgency out of making them accessible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:19 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi, I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML. As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me. I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies. Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

What about a collective thing? I know very little about jaws / window eyes scripting but what about collectively approaching a company such as t and t consultancy to request that they create jaws scripts? I'm sure they'd except paypal or something like that and licence it out to this group as aposed to any one user. at the end of the day, they'd still earn from it. it would significantly cut down on the cost to each interested person who required better access to certain administration tools while increasing the viability for others to use them. it would be a win win situation, we would get better access, scripts would be available for others with less experience so more would be in a better position to start therefore increasing the user base therefore motivating the AT companies to provide support. It's not what you'd call a conventional idea but if even five / ten people were interested we could get something going. All that would be required initially would be a list of applications that for example come with windows server 2003 or 2008, take your pick. Pick out three or four vital applications that do not work very well with jaws but that are vital for the administration of a standard AD or exchange environment then send these app names to a scripter and request a quote. It would be up to the interested members of this list to go for it or not after that. Take for example windows server update services. The CLI for that is terrible at times depending on what you want to do. A scripter should be able to do something to make that more usable and efficient. Just a thought. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie Ryan Shugart Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 24/09/2009 09:03 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To Blind sysadmins list cc Subject Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Andrew: Very good points. The explanations I've gotten from the AT vendors I've talked to is that there simply aren't enough blind people using these complex systems to warrant them putting the development resources into making them work. I honestly don't fully buy that, I think many, certainly not all but many, AT vendors don't have the inhouse expertise to understand these systems themselves. The IT environment in many AT vendor shops is simple. That goes for both screen reader/magnifier vendors as well as the companies who provide value added services. I'm trying to get some scripts written to make my use of Window-Eyes with some systems a little easier. The company I went with, a fairly big one in the US, hadn't heard of half the stuff we used, even the more common stuff such as, oh, VMWare ESX and Backup Exec. In all fairness they have made a good effort to do the best they could, but still the lack of expertise in these systems did sometimes hamper the process. I get that most of these companies are small and don't have the resources larger firms do. But, I maintain that if you can get around using some of these products, it takes some of the urgency out of making them accessible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:19 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi, I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML. As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me. I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies. Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Darragh: That's an interesting idea worth considering. I think it would depend on how much scripting work would be required, most of these companies charge by the hour. The one we went with charged about $200 per hour. If we could find some common tools though, and if they could be made accessible with some limited scripting, it could work. Good example, Microsoft has come up with a new kind of control for their MMC 3.0 apps that's basically a gridded list view. The Windows Explorer app in Windows 7 uses a similar control but not exactly the same. Anyway, you make this grid accessible, and suddenly many MMC 3 apps that didn't work before start working. And some non MMC apps, Backup Exec 12.0 and higher now uses this grid control. The grid presents info through MSAA and follows accessibility rules, just no major screen reader has found it important yet to support. I first mentioned this control to GW-Micro back in 2007. My point though is that might be a good starting place to perhaps test the waters for your idea. It probably wouldn't take that many hours to develop a common script to address all grids, and since they are used in so many places a lot of people would go for the scripts. For more complex apps, your idea might not fly so well with the scripting companies, again my thought is it will depend on how much work they have to do and how many billable hours they'd loose. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh.OHeiligh@Oireachtas.ie Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:18 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind sysadmins list; blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? What about a collective thing? I know very little about jaws / window eyes scripting but what about collectively approaching a company such as t and t consultancy to request that they create jaws scripts? I'm sure they'd except paypal or something like that and licence it out to this group as aposed to any one user. at the end of the day, they'd still earn from it. it would significantly cut down on the cost to each interested person who required better access to certain administration tools while increasing the viability for others to use them. it would be a win win situation, we would get better access, scripts would be available for others with less experience so more would be in a better position to start therefore increasing the user base therefore motivating the AT companies to provide support. It's not what you'd call a conventional idea but if even five / ten people were interested we could get something going. All that would be required initially would be a list of applications that for example come with windows server 2003 or 2008, take your pick. Pick out three or four vital applications that do not work very well with jaws but that are vital for the administration of a standard AD or exchange environment then send these app names to a scripter and request a quote. It would be up to the interested members of this list to go for it or not after that. Take for example windows server update services. The CLI for that is terrible at times depending on what you want to do. A scripter should be able to do something to make that more usable and efficient. Just a thought. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie Ryan Shugart Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 24/09/2009 09:03 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To Blind sysadmins list cc Subject Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Andrew: Very good points. The explanations I've gotten from the AT vendors I've talked to is that there simply aren't enough blind people using these complex systems to warrant them putting the development resources into making them work. I honestly don't fully buy that, I think many, certainly not all but many, AT vendors don't have the inhouse expertise to understand these systems themselves. The IT environment in many AT vendor shops is simple. That goes for both screen reader/magnifier vendors as well as the companies who provide value added services. I'm trying to get some scripts written to make my use of Window-Eyes with some systems a little easier. The company I went with, a fairly big one in the US, hadn't heard of half the stuff we used, even the more common stuff such as, oh, VMWare ESX and Backup Exec. In all fairness they have made a good effort to do the best they could, but still the lack of expertise in these systems did sometimes hamper the process. I get that most of these companies are small and don't have the resources larger firms do. But, I maintain that if you can get around using some of these products, it takes some of the urgency out of making them accessible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:19 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi, I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML. As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me. I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies. Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

John, count me in! I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise. My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:) Anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Really, so when I used the jfw cursor I didn't find any indicators at all. Maybe thewarning for cryptographic export or something got in the way? I'll give it another shot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible? Hi, I needed to use the download manager today actually. It is sort of usable if you use the Jaws cursor and do continued Jaws refresh commands. I was downloading an IOS image. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 17:15 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? John, count me in! I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise. My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:) Anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, That is correct, just click on the item you want to expand then refresh the screen. It will pick up the expanded items. Not perfect but doable. Our helpdesk system at work uses a similar system. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 18:10 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible? Really, so when I used the jfw cursor I didn't find any indicators at all. Maybe thewarning for cryptographic export or something got in the way? I'll give it another shot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible? Hi, I needed to use the download manager today actually. It is sort of usable if you use the Jaws cursor and do continued Jaws refresh commands. I was downloading an IOS image. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 17:15 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? John, count me in! I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise. My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:) Anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Scott, It sounds like Java app is not actually running; I suspect you need to select Accept in the Warning screen in order for the applet to actually run. On Thu, September 24, 2009 15:43, Scott Granados wrote:

Hi, so I tried again and this didn't work for me, wonder what I'm doing wrong. I browse over to the site, log in, select download, security, asa software, the version I want then a warning screen with no text pops up which I close then the download manager screen opens with no text other than the contact / feedback buttons. I then close that and pick the click here if your dl doesn't start button and the whole thing repeats. What did I miss?:)

Thanks Scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becominglessandless accessible?

Hi,

That is correct, just click on the item you want to expand then refresh the screen. It will pick up the expanded items. Not perfect but doable. Our helpdesk system at work uses a similar system.

Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 18:10 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible?

Really, so when I used the jfw cursor I didn't find any indicators at all. Maybe thewarning for cryptographic export or something got in the way? I'll give it another shot.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible?

Hi,

I needed to use the download manager today actually. It is sort of usable if you use the Jaws cursor and do continued Jaws refresh commands. I was downloading an IOS image.

Thanks. Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 17:15 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible?

John, count me in!

I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise.

My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:)

Anyone else?

----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible?

It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems.

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Hi, Strange. When I do it using my login, I can just download the software - the initial selection screen is problematic, but once I have the selection chosen, I agree the license terms then proceed to the download - which I have to restart as the IE blocks it. I don't use the Cisco stuff at work, but have an old router and a newer ASA box here which I download stuff for. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 20:44 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becominglessandless accessible? Hi, so I tried again and this didn't work for me, wonder what I'm doing wrong. I browse over to the site, log in, select download, security, asa software, the version I want then a warning screen with no text pops up which I close then the download manager screen opens with no text other than the contact / feedback buttons. I then close that and pick the click here if your dl doesn't start button and the whole thing repeats. What did I miss?:) Thanks Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becominglessandless accessible? Hi, That is correct, just click on the item you want to expand then refresh the screen. It will pick up the expanded items. Not perfect but doable. Our helpdesk system at work uses a similar system. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 18:10 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible? Really, so when I used the jfw cursor I didn't find any indicators at all. Maybe thewarning for cryptographic export or something got in the way? I'll give it another shot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandless accessible? Hi, I needed to use the download manager today actually. It is sort of usable if you use the Jaws cursor and do continued Jaws refresh commands. I was downloading an IOS image. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 17:15 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? John, count me in! I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise. My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:) Anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, I needed to use the download manager today actually. It is sort of usable if you use the Jaws cursor and do continued Jaws refresh commands. I was downloading an IOS image. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 24 September 2009 17:15 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? John, count me in! I have been a network engineer since 1992 and a Cisco user for the entire time period. Cisco used to be great including offering to braille documentation but that level of service has fallen off since they grew from a small splinter group from Stanford in to a massive enterprise. My particular problems are the download manager for their software images on their web site is unusable, tools like the ASDM don't work with screen readers and the ONS15454 config tool is java based and not hugely friendly. Sometimes there is a CLI option which is great like in the case of the ASA hardware and ASDM but things like the downloads not being available is just a real pisser and makes life difficult. I shouldn't have to have my coworker download something for me.:) Anyone else? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? It was for problems like this that I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. If anyone is interested in working with me on this, I can write a letter to Cisco about the accessibility of their products. I'll need contact information at Cisco if anyone has that, a list of problems, and if possible, a group of blind users of Cisco products for the engineers to work with to address the problems. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Is there an official organization or group of Blind technical professionals that could draft a letter to the screen reader manufacturors and demand some service? We really need this support. Tech jobs are just to good of a deal for blind workers. If we clear some of these accessibility issues we can compete on the same footing as everyone else and enjoy real economic success. What's more important than that? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:19 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi, I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML. As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me. I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies. Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Oh, by the way, what you say below is pretty much exactly why I started the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. I have a lot of friends who are computer professionals. I've seen a pattern emerge where they gradually get locked out of the really juicy parts of their jobs. Cisco engineering would be a good example. It is just easier for your boss to put someone else in charge of your routers if you are struggling to access them. So maybe you already have too much to do anyway. Well, what if one thing after another follows that pattern? Pretty soon you're doing nothing but cobol programming all day. And then when layoffs come around, you're the one who gets it. And why not? It's only fair. After all, you are less important to the company than the other people. Existing advocacy groups for the blind tend to address the blind mass arket -- if there is such a thing. And I can understand that. They are more interested in making sure Microsoft Excel is accessible than Cisco routers. The NFB sued Target because it's web site is inaccessible. That's fine with me. But I couldn't care less about Target's web site. To me, accessibility of VMware is way, way more important. To you it's Cisco. To other blind technologists, it's Phoenix BIOSes. I doubt even a single person's job depends on them being able to access the Target web site. There may be such a person but if so, there are very very few. But your livelyhood and mine depend on the accessibility of Cisco, VMWare, etc. This is what is putting food on the table for us. This is what is paying our heating bills. So that's why I started IAVIT. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible?

Is there an official organization or group of Blind technical professionals that could draft a letter to the screen reader manufacturors and demand some service? We really need this support. Tech jobs are just to good of a deal for blind workers. If we clear some of these accessibility issues we can compete on the same footing as everyone else and enjoy real economic success. What's more important than that?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:19 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible?

Hi,

I use a couple of newer Cisco products which don't use Java, including the CSA agents, the Cisco secure ACS (which has a strange Java page to log into the system but after that is plain HTML), and some of the Call manager work I need to do is also in plain HTML. I think the newer versions of Call manager are also in plain HTML.

As I have said before, it is a trend of a lot of network provider gear to use the newer web standards, to make their apps seem as though you are using a real application. For example, a product we use for network logging is done completely in a Java application, and thus is completely inaccessible to me.

I, like you, feel that the screen reader manufacturers should be pushing a lot harder for access to this, I can't honestly see a reason why this has gone relatively unnoticed for so long. Software houses like FS and the like seem quite happy to add new features to Jaws like dictionary lookups etc, yet we still don't have access to some of the fundamental technologies.

Thanks. Andrew.

Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer

Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net

Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 24 September 2009 07:18 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible?

I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible?

I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible?

I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue.

This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much.

I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately.

I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com.

Sincerely,

Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible?

Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible?

Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle?

Thanks Scott

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Ryan, you have a point. I think Java support should be a non issue by now and for some reason, the screen reader folks don't take it seriously. However, in this case it's not just the blind community that's pissed. Lots of network engineers need a quick / easy way to get their software images. Cisco used to do simple ftp / rsync / http access secured with a name and password. You could kick these processes off from anywhere (including directly from the router) and not be dependent on anything like JRE version, whether you have Java at all, browser and so on. Now this bloated tool keeps the user in this box where they have to use the right Java with the right browser and field upgrades directly from with in the hardware aren't possible. It sucks! This just reflects a trend to make things on the web pretty, not functional and for some reason vendors don't care if their largest customers don't like the service. It's marketing girls gone wild! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Shugart" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming lessandlessaccessible? I'm not sure 508 will help us here. In my experience with dealing with government agencies, most of them don't understand section 508 themselves, and the few that do, on the organizational level, look at it as something to be worked around, not complied with. There are a lot of good people who do take 508 seriously, but my experience is they're just lost in the wind. On the specific topic of Cisco, my company just deployed Cisco's Anyconnect VPN, and that's perfectly accessible. Its all web based, the pages are very basic HTML, there is a Java or ActiveX plugin to handle the actual VPN and network traffic, but it has no UI and everything's HTML based. So some Cisco products work, and as far as VPNs go Any Connect seems to be the wave of the future, as I don't think the standard VPN client will work on X64 based systems. As to the problem of the web site and such using Java, this brings up a good question. Should we tell Cisco to not use Java or any of these newer standards because they're inaccessible, or should we make the newer standards accessible? Java accessibility in particular is a joke. For a platform that's been in wide spread use for at least ten years, if not fifteen, it should be much more widely used. Both leading screen readers have very bad Java support. I honestly don't know if this is the fault of the screen reader vendors, Sun or the Java programmers, but unless Cisco's Java isn't using the accessibility standards, its not Cisco's fault their site and downloads are inaccessible, its either the screen reader vendors or Sun's. Again I don't know whose fault that is, I'm just saying the answer to this isn't to push Cisco to stop using these newer technologies, its to push the adaptive technology industry really hard, and possibly in some uncomfortrable directions for th em. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:47 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; dave.mehler@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I don't work for the feds so it won't help me much but I know people who do.:) I'd love to see the government threaten to stop buying Cisco for 1 day, that would put this whole thing to rest once and for all. I'm hopeful though, the sited folks don't like the state of things either so hopefully they will redesign a lot of this stuff for the whole market, that's much more likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher McMillan" To: ; "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andlessaccessible? I dealt with Section 508 for ALVA Access Group and also worked for the Federal Government in IT and the early stages of 508 Regulations. Feel free to e-mail me off list and I can send the regulations forward to help with this issue. This relates to Federal Agencies using the equipment and not the public workforce. I can tell you that much. I will be going on vacation till 10/13/09 so it will take awhile if I don't hear from any one privately. I can be reached at christophermcmillan@hotmail.com or work e-mail at chrismcmillan@ceektech.com. Sincerely, Christopher McMillan, CIO CEEK Technology Blog: http://ceektechnology.spaces.live.com Web Site: http://www.ceektechnology.com WM: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com E-mail: chrismcmillan@ceektech.com or christophermcmillan@hotmail.com -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:14 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi, Emphatically yes i am seeing the same thing. I have a Linksys WRT54g2 router and I can not use the java download page the dropdown box like thing, emphasis on, is not jfw friendly at all. This to me is unacceptable. I've emailed them feedback but have heard nothing. I really want to get the latest firmware as i'm hoping that that will make a linux upgrade easier. And the law i believe is called Section 508, I think it says something and this is a paraphrase: to market to the government products and services which i suppose sites would be in that group must be accessible to persons with disabilities. Hth Dave. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and lessaccessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, Interesting to know about that. Is this web based or through some other GUI? Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh.OHeiligh@Oireachtas.ie Sent: 24 September 2009 08:30 To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind sysadmins list; blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? I have to say, I'm loving the Juniper management solution for both their firewalls and their RAS equipment. If you have the opiton, move to them. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie "Scott Granados" Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 23/09/2009 23:11 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To "Blind sysadmins list" cc Subject [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above.

Most of it is web based. but jfw and w e work flawlessly with the menu system, it's basically html and css driven, all the different ui's are frame based so it's easy to jump around and decent enough mark up is used so it's usually really easy to read logs. In fact, it's one of the best logging systems, if not the best I've ever used. the table format is unbeatable. For administering, everything is done via normal html input elements. For really customized jobs, you can export the config to a text file, edit that and then re-import it again overriding the existing config. That's absolutely fantastic for doing major role outs or restoring from failures. On the routers, it's pritty much the same. I've found just as much configurability as on sisco routers. On Wireless access points, I'm particularly impressed by the configuration options available for IEEE 802.1x. I haven't used the routers or A P's with SNMP yet and I haven't even read about it but it's something I'm really going to have to look into between now and the end of the year. Come to think of it, I first have to find the Mibs for the juniper equipment. That's always a load of fun no matter what hardware it is. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Andrew Hodgson Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 24/09/2009 08:48 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To Blind sysadmins list cc Subject Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi, Interesting to know about that. Is this web based or through some other GUI? Thanks. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh.OHeiligh@Oireachtas.ie Sent: 24 September 2009 08:30 To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind sysadmins list; blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? I have to say, I'm loving the Juniper management solution for both their firewalls and their RAS equipment. If you have the opiton, move to them. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie "Scott Granados" Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 23/09/2009 23:11 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To "Blind sysadmins list" cc Subject [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I've heard very good things about Juniper products as well. The company I used to work for had a JuniperSSL VPN device and for its time that thing was really cool. Go to a web site (perfectly accessible,) sign in and you're on the VPN. This was several years before Cisco came out with their Any Connect. The admin for that appliance was very accessible, but confusing because options weren't where you'd think they were. But that's not an accessibility issue. Anyway, now that we're part of a bigger company we've had to migrate all our stuff to Cisco, but we still use the JuniperSSL device to access the little part of the old environment that had to stay intact for legal reasons, and I love working with it. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh.OHeiligh@Oireachtas.ie Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:30 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind sysadmins list; blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? I have to say, I'm loving the Juniper management solution for both their firewalls and their RAS equipment. If you have the opiton, move to them. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie "Scott Granados" Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 23/09/2009 23:11 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To "Blind sysadmins list" cc Subject [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

That's my plan, I'm going to migrate my whole network over to Juniper if I don't start to get some Cisco love. I have my eye on one of the new 4200 series virtual chassis boxes! (fingers crossed that I get budget approval) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Blind sysadmins list" Cc: "Blind sysadmins list" ; Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less andless accessible? I have to say, I'm loving the Juniper management solution for both their firewalls and their RAS equipment. If you have the opiton, move to them. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie "Scott Granados" Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 23/09/2009 23:11 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To "Blind sysadmins list" cc Subject [Blind-sysadmins] Anyone else noticing Cisco becoming less and less accessible? Hi all, I know this has come up in some forms before but has anyone else noticed how unfriendly to screen readers Cisco's web site and products are becoming? I just tried to download the latest windows VPN client and got lost in a java based download manager that had absolutely no output recognizable to JFW. This sucks! In fact, WTF! I guess this makes my decision to suggest that my company migrate over to Juniper even easier. Isn't there some federal accessibility standard or some such in place that Cisco has to conform to in order to market the US government? Can't some pressure be applied from that angle? Thanks Scott _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins