Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

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Darragh Ó Héiligh

15 Jun 2016 15 Jun '16

11:38 a.m.

AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage. So, what do you think? Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes? I think this has the potential to be huge news.

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Ryan Shugart

15 Jun 15 Jun

1:50 p.m.

As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...

AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Scott Granados

2:17 p.m.

I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued. All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing. On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...

As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

John G Heim

3:31 p.m.

I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business. We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up. Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO. On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

Justin Romack

4:10 p.m.

Yes, I think compliance is a driver for Apple's pursuit of universal access features -- especially as it pertains to sales in the education and government markets. But the fact they go beyond just rudimentary access (read: What Narrator has been for Windows), coupled with their company culture of excellence, innovation and inclusion, I think Apple is committed far beyond what they're obligated to do -- because it's the right thing, not the required thing. Please know this comes from the mouth and mind of a full-time Windows user. I couldn't stay productive without my Win machines, as much as I love my iOS and Macbook devices. I think there are a number of layers to this buyout -- and while we're certainly going to have to wait and see how it shapes up, I hope it's for the benefit of the individual. Prices need to come down, new ideas need to come forth, etc etc, and I find it hard to believe any of this will happen as players come off the board and out of the marketplace -- but their words say they're committed to making it so, and I'm eagerly awaiting their actions to reflect the same. Change is hard for just about everyone -- but the community of individuals with sensory disabilities tend to respond to change with a bit more resistance (and that's understood.) I'm curious to watch this play out -- and will reserve my frustration for when changes are substantiated and there is good reason. Anything else is speculation, and that's not fair to anyone. Justin Romack Hero House Creative justin@herohousecreative.com -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:31 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared. I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business. We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up. Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO. On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Darragh Ó Héiligh

18 Jun 18 Jun

3:18 p.m.

The FSCast discussing this is here: http://podcast.freedomscientific.com/FSCast/episodes/FSCast127-David_Wu.mp3 -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Justin Romack Sent: Wednesday 15 June 2016 17:10 To: jheim@math.wisc.edu; 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared. Yes, I think compliance is a driver for Apple's pursuit of universal access features -- especially as it pertains to sales in the education and government markets. But the fact they go beyond just rudimentary access (read: What Narrator has been for Windows), coupled with their company culture of excellence, innovation and inclusion, I think Apple is committed far beyond what they're obligated to do -- because it's the right thing, not the required thing. Please know this comes from the mouth and mind of a full-time Windows user. I couldn't stay productive without my Win machines, as much as I love my iOS and Macbook devices. I think there are a number of layers to this buyout -- and while we're certainly going to have to wait and see how it shapes up, I hope it's for the benefit of the individual. Prices need to come down, new ideas need to come forth, etc etc, and I find it hard to believe any of this will happen as players come off the board and out of the marketplace -- but their words say they're committed to making it so, and I'm eagerly awaiting their actions to reflect the same. Change is hard for just about everyone -- but the community of individuals with sensory disabilities tend to respond to change with a bit more resistance (and that's understood.) I'm curious to watch this play out -- and will reserve my frustration for when changes are substantiated and there is good reason. Anything else is speculation, and that's not fair to anyone. Justin Romack Hero House Creative justin@herohousecreative.com -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:31 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared. I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business. We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up. Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO. On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Darragh Ó Héiligh

3:18 p.m.

...

I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Brent Harding

16 Jun 16 Jun

1:10 a.m.

I am worried a little on what might come of the screen reader market. For work, the Jaws cursor and little tricks are absolutely required for the phone control program and another program I use, the rest is web-based, and besides needing to be able to click a graphic at times and fiddle around to expand items that are expandable inside a combo box, that part generally works. The phone part almost requires braille cursor routing buttons to even activate, as those are more precise than the JFW cursor, or it likes that kind of signal better, but I need the display anyways for verbatim disclosures. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...

I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business.

We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up.

Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO.

On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...
I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

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Sean Murphy

11:04 a.m.

Interesting move. I have wanted something like this for ages. Why? As there is really good features in Windows-eyes and Jaws. Merging them together as a single product will really make a powerful product. Zoom text is a far better product then Magic from my sources. So don’t know what will occur here. Hopefully they merge the two screen readers together and take the best bits from each to build a new product that stands on the shoulders of the two previous products. There is still Cobra, Dolphin screen readers which I don’t know how much of the market they have. Never used them and don’t know how good they are. NVDA well lets see what happens as it is the up coming program. I better learn it seriously. The apple accessibility framework is quite good. There are a lot of issues with Voice-ver which apple have not addressed or will not. Examples: Run VMWare with any host. Voice-Over by default still takes priority over the caps lock and doesn’t give control to the guess OS. This is a Apple issue, not a VMWare issue. If I am in a guess OS, then the caps lock should be controlled by the Guess OS, not Mac OS. Open a terminal. Display a directory with ‘ls’ -l”. Now try and get to the beginning of one of the directory listings with a single key. If you can work this one out, then I would be highly grateful as you cannot from my research and playing. Under windows if you use the similar feature, it is a single keystroke. This is just a basic navigation feature. If you use face time and other like programs. There are controls which Voice-Over doesn’t see or is included in the tab order. I only found this one out today. The windows screen reader’s do have there issues. So none of them are perfect and do have issues. finally, will MS buy out the screen readers? Based upon a previous post, maybe not or has the environment changed in the accessibility world. NFB and ACB how much truely are they doing to change the landscape with accessible main stream products so people can get jobs? I keep hearing different stories. Love to know. Sean These are some of the minor annoying issues other then controls

...

On 16 Jun 2016, at 11:10 AM, Brent Harding wrote:

I am worried a little on what might come of the screen reader market. For work, the Jaws cursor and little tricks are absolutely required for the phone control program and another program I use, the rest is web-based, and besides needing to be able to click a graphic at times and fiddle around to expand items that are expandable inside a combo box, that part generally works. The phone part almost requires braille cursor routing buttons to even activate, as those are more precise than the JFW cursor, or it likes that kind of signal better, but I need the display anyways for verbatim disclosures. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business.

We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up.

Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO.

On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...
I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Steve Nutt

11:09 a.m.

Wow, how many times have I heard people get the name of Window-Eyes wrong. It Is Not Windows-Eyes. All the best Steve -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Sean Murphy Sent: 16 June 2016 12:05 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared. Interesting move. I have wanted something like this for ages. Why? As there is really good features in Windows-eyes and Jaws. Merging them together as a single product will really make a powerful product. Zoom text is a far better product then Magic from my sources. So don’t know what will occur here. Hopefully they merge the two screen readers together and take the best bits from each to build a new product that stands on the shoulders of the two previous products. There is still Cobra, Dolphin screen readers which I don’t know how much of the market they have. Never used them and don’t know how good they are. NVDA well lets see what happens as it is the up coming program. I better learn it seriously. The apple accessibility framework is quite good. There are a lot of issues with Voice-ver which apple have not addressed or will not. Examples: Run VMWare with any host. Voice-Over by default still takes priority over the caps lock and doesn’t give control to the guess OS. This is a Apple issue, not a VMWare issue. If I am in a guess OS, then the caps lock should be controlled by the Guess OS, not Mac OS. Open a terminal. Display a directory with ‘ls’ -l”. Now try and get to the beginning of one of the directory listings with a single key. If you can work this one out, then I would be highly grateful as you cannot from my research and playing. Under windows if you use the similar feature, it is a single keystroke. This is just a basic navigation feature. If you use face time and other like programs. There are controls which Voice-Over doesn’t see or is included in the tab order. I only found this one out today. The windows screen reader’s do have there issues. So none of them are perfect and do have issues. finally, will MS buy out the screen readers? Based upon a previous post, maybe not or has the environment changed in the accessibility world. NFB and ACB how much truely are they doing to change the landscape with accessible main stream products so people can get jobs? I keep hearing different stories. Love to know. Sean These are some of the minor annoying issues other then controls

...

On 16 Jun 2016, at 11:10 AM, Brent Harding wrote:

I am worried a little on what might come of the screen reader market. For work, the Jaws cursor and little tricks are absolutely required for the phone control program and another program I use, the rest is web-based, and besides needing to be able to click a graphic at times and fiddle around to expand items that are expandable inside a combo box, that part generally works. The phone part almost requires braille cursor routing buttons to even activate, as those are more precise than the JFW cursor, or it likes that kind of signal better, but I need the display anyways for verbatim disclosures. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
I already mentioned in my previous post that several years ago, Microsoft was asked not to develop a screen reader by blind advocacy groups. This was about the same time that Microsoft was in court under an anti-trust action for including a browser in it's operating system. I don't think it was difficult to talk Microsoft out of including a screen reader that might have driven the other screen reader developers out of business.

We should also be careful about giving Apple too much credit for including a screen reader in it's operating system. Under US law, they couldn't sell computers to schools, colleges, and universities unless there was a screen reader. It is probably not a coincidence that Apple came out with voiceover shortly after the only other screen reader for Mac OS went out of business. I will give Apple credit for not charging extra for voiceover and for having the foresight to put it on their IOS devices. They are now required by law to have a screen reader on their IOS devices but they had it way before it was required. Microsoft still hasn't caught up.

Like I said in my other message, I think it's all about enforcement. We have been depending on the NFB suing universities to keep them from ignoring federal laws and regulations and hoping that has a trickle down effect on the industry as a whole. Not a very sound system, IMO.

On 06/15/2016 09:17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...
I just wish Microsoft would include accessibility and put the whole lot out of business. Personally, all this talk makes me so happy I jumped off the windows bandwagon in 2008. VoiceOver has treated me better and fit in to my work flow better which works for me but everyone is different with different requirements. I’m just glad I don’t have to worry about my access solution being discontinued.

All that said, pending Microsoft entering the market and doing what they should have years ago I hope someone with quality products persists. Windows access is vital to us. It scares me one major competitor is disappearing.

On 6/15/16, 9:50 AM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Ryan Shugart" wrote:

...
As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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John G Heim

15 Jun 15 Jun

3:11 p.m.

Governments that require thattheir own employees have accessible computers will need to define what constitutes a viable screen reader. The government of the United States already does this to a degree. A company cannot sell computers to a university in the United States unless it has a working screen reader. Narrator, for example, doesn't qualify. I'm not sure if the EU has that sort of specification. I am not a political expert but my impression is that the EU is even more open to this kind of regulation than the USA is. About 20 years ago, a group of blind advocacy groups, including the National Federation Of the Blind, issued a statement asking Microsoft to not develop narrator into a full fledged screen reader. Their reasoning was that if Microsoft included a free screen reader with it's operating system, it would drive commercial screen reader companies out of business. I was critical of the statement at the time because I felt that it discriminated against unemployed blind people and because it was only a matter of time before commercial screen readers would be undercut by free screen readers anyway. By the NFB's reasoning, nvda would be a bad thing for the blind community as a whole. So would orca for linux and Apple voiceover. On the other hand, as a delaying tactic, the NFB's action might have been pretty effective. I'm not sure we're better off though. I think we'd be better off if, instead of comparing jaws to nvda for the past several years, we were comparing Microsoft's screen reader to Apple's screen reader. The real question is enforcement. I'd hate to see the whole world depend on the NFB suing universities in order to keepsoftware companies on their toes. On 06/15/2016 08:50 AM, Ryan Shugart wrote:

...

As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

vic.pereira＠ssc-spc.gc.ca

3:25 p.m.

When I read the press release it didn't sound like a merger. It sounded like a buyout. It will be interesting to see what happens in the text to speech arena. When I was managing and administering servers on a variety of platforms there were some web interfaces that I couldn't get working well enough with Jaws. There were times when the Jaws cursor couldn't perform like the Window-Eyes mouse keys. This was true for the web interface for Novell Netware and some proprietary applications that resided on mainframe computers and ended up with a browser client. Sadly recently it appears as if Window-Eyes has lost some ground with Windows 10, MS Office 2016 and some browser applications. In my experience it doesn't seem as stable as it once was. It also seems to not be as robust. It would be nice if Windows had a built-in text to speech application like VoiceOver. At first blush I don't know how it would have had an impact on employment for our community. I don't think GW Micro and Freedom Scientific have a huge army of developers who are blind or who have a vision impairment. They might have some of course, but I would be surprised if they outnumber the sighted developers on staff. I, although naively, believe that if text to speech was built into the OS we would have more employment opportunities or at least an easier time in the technical areas such as Windows Server administration, management and using other Microsoft products outside of Office like SharePoint, Project, etc. Vic Pereira Project Manager, Networks and End-Users Branch Shared Services Canada / Government of Canada vic.pereira@ssc-spc.gc.ca / Tel: 204-781-5046 Gestionnaire de projet, Direction des réseaux et des utilisateurs finaux Services partagés Canada / Gouvernement du Canada vic.pereira@ssc-spc.gc.ca / Tél: 204-781-5046 -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:12 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared. Governments that require thattheir own employees have accessible computers will need to define what constitutes a viable screen reader. The government of the United States already does this to a degree. A company cannot sell computers to a university in the United States unless it has a working screen reader. Narrator, for example, doesn't qualify. I'm not sure if the EU has that sort of specification. I am not a political expert but my impression is that the EU is even more open to this kind of regulation than the USA is. About 20 years ago, a group of blind advocacy groups, including the National Federation Of the Blind, issued a statement asking Microsoft to not develop narrator into a full fledged screen reader. Their reasoning was that if Microsoft included a free screen reader with it's operating system, it would drive commercial screen reader companies out of business. I was critical of the statement at the time because I felt that it discriminated against unemployed blind people and because it was only a matter of time before commercial screen readers would be undercut by free screen readers anyway. By the NFB's reasoning, nvda would be a bad thing for the blind community as a whole. So would orca for linux and Apple voiceover. On the other hand, as a delaying tactic, the NFB's action might have been pretty effective. I'm not sure we're better off though. I think we'd be better off if, instead of comparing jaws to nvda for the past several years, we were comparing Microsoft's screen reader to Apple's screen reader. The real question is enforcement. I'd hate to see the whole world depend on the NFB suing universities in order to keepsoftware companies on their toes. On 06/15/2016 08:50 AM, Ryan Shugart wrote:

...

As a Window-Eyes user, am I nervous? Absolutely. On the other hand though, the papers have been signed, AISquared as a business entity is no more, and there’s just not much we can do at this point. Do I have concerns? Yes. But, I don’t know what’s happening behind the closed doors, and in the end the market will shape out how it will shape out. A lot of people, myself included, have been saying the desktop screen reader market has needed a big shakeup for some time now. Well, we got it. Not quite what I was thinking but hey. For the moment we’re just in wait and see land, and things will fall as they will. I suspect this is probably just as much a shock for the devs on the JAWS side, and there’s probably as many questions going through their minds as on the Window-Eyes side. I don’t think Window-Eyes will continue as the product we know. But the same could be said for JAWS too, I have no idea what will end up happening but I predict it will be a change on both the JAWS and Window-Eyes sides. As for NVDA, I’m not sure there’s anything for them to be scared of really. I mean yes, there’s a big force now in the screen reader market, but my feeling is those who supported NVDA will continue to do so for the same reasons they always have, and NVDA will continue as a product just as it always has. And that is a good thing, it insures there’s still some competition out there. So my guess is it will be business as normal in NVDA land. And that’s fine with me. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Darragh Ó Héiligh Reply-To: Blind sysadmins list Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 5:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Isaac

16 Jun 16 Jun

12:40 a.m.

bann me if you want but vfo is very fucked off ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 6:38 AM Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...

AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Scott Granados

11:17 a.m.

+1 And I wouldn’t categorize the NFB’s response as anything but an outride bribe taken from Ted Henter to protest built in screen readers and thus set our community back by a decade. Ted Henter gave the NFB 7 figures to protest against Microsoft and with in a week they were marching up and down in Redmond. Sad that our interests are subverted by a few for personal gain but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. On 6/15/16, 8:40 PM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Isaac" wrote: bann me if you want but vfo is very fucked off ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 6:38 AM Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...

AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

John G Heim

1:46 p.m.

Please take this question at face value, What's your source for your claim that Ted Henter gave the NFB 7 figures to protest against Microsoft and with in a week they were marching up and down in Redmond? If that's really well documented, it's quite a bombshell. I wasn't exactly an NFB insider when the NFB said it did not want Microsoft to develop narrater more fully. But I argued extensively with the people on the committee that offered that recommendation. I am going to say we exchanged hundreds of messages about it on the nfbcs list over a period of several months. I am about as sure as I can be that the people involved made that recommendation because they honestly believed that blind people needed jaws to do their jobs and therefore we needed to protect Henter-Joyce for our own good. I never heard anything about a donation from Ted Henter. Of course, if they actually did take a bribe, they wouldn't say so. I don't recall the NFB organizing protests either. As far as I know, all the NFB did was issue a statement, in conjunction with a consortium of accessibility advocates, that recommended that Microsoft not go any further with narrator. I've been getting beaten up by people from the NFB over this for a long time. They complain if I say the NFB asked Microsoft not to develop a screen reader for Windows. They want me to say they were part of a consortium that made that recommendation. Personally, I don't think that is a particularly meaningful distinction especially since there was some opposition to the recommendation within the consortium and it was in large part due to the efforts of the NFB that the NFB's own viewpoint prevailed. I'm not really the type to bend over backward to defend the NFB but I really think their people acted in good faith. It occurs to me that some of the people that were on that committee are still on the nfbcs list. Someone could just ask them if they happened to get a donation from Ted Henter about the same time they made the recommendation to Microsoft. Personally, I am not willing to ask that question. On 17 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

+1

And I wouldn’t categorize the NFB’s response as anything but an outride bribe taken from Ted Henter to protest built in screen readers and thus set our community back by a decade.

Ted Henter gave the NFB 7 figures to protest against Microsoft and with in a week they were marching up and down in Redmond. Sad that our interests are subverted by a few for personal gain but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

On 6/15/16, 8:40 PM, "Blind-sysadmins on behalf of Isaac" wrote:

bann me if you want but vfo is very fucked off ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 6:38 AM Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Merger between VFO group and AI Squared.

...
AI Squared has been merged into VFO group. I'm sure you've heard at this stage.

So, what do you think?

Are those of you who use Window Eyes worried? Do you see the VFO group retaining both Jaws and Window Eyes?

I think this has the potential to be huge news. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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-- -- John G. Heim; jheim@math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

John G Heim

2:12 p.m.

One more thing about the NFB. Several years ago, I was exchanging emails with Curtis Chong, the NFB's point man on computer accessibility issues. He frequently met with developers at Microsoft to discuss accessibility issues. It's a pretty cool thing actually -- Microsoft would regularly meet with blind representatives to try to find out what accessibility issues we had. I emailed Curtis to try to get him to bring up a problem with the accessibility of a Windows system administration tool. It's been many years since I was a Windows sys admin but I think it was called MMA. (Don't quote me on that.) But Curtis was not interested because blind systems admins are such a small population. An accessibility issue in Microsoft Word might effect hundreds of thousands of blind people. But a bug in, what was it?, MMA might effect a few hundred. He felt he couldn't waste valuable time talking about something like that. And that made a certain amount of sense to me. But to me, it said we needed our own group. That's when I got the idea to form the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists. It was at the moment when I read Curtis's email message saying he didn't want to waste time talking about a systems admin tool that I had the revalation that our accessibility needs are unfairly, in my opinion, taking a backseat to accessibility needs of the blind community as a whole. I say "unfairly" because while the accessibility issues in most of Microsofts products are fairly minor, an accessibility in a sys admin tool can be a show stopper. The bugs in Word and Excel that Curtis would work with Microsoft were probably not costing anybody their jobs. But a bug in a sys admin tool might. and not just any job, we are talking about some of the best jobs open to blind people. Nobody on this list probably makes as much as a typical airline pilot but none of us is ever going to be an airline pilot. But that line of reasoning just didn't have any traction with Curtis. That's when I said to myself that we need our own group. PS: You know who I've had the most success selling that line of reasoing to? Linux developers.

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Brent Harding
Darragh Ó Héiligh
Isaac
John G Heim
Justin Romack
Ryan Shugart
Scott Granados
Sean Murphy
Steve Nutt
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