Darragh: I'm sorry you're having issues with the O365 admin interface, I am able to get what I need done using JAWS and Edge Chromium, but agree the UI can be very confusing especially if you don't need to go into the admin interface much. I recently had to mess with the licensing on my personal tenant and while I got what I needed done the UI was laid out in a very confusing way. I've said this before, but everyone having problems with this, please email edad@microsoft.com if you haven't already. We need to get these bugs open for the O365 team, and the only way we can impress upon them that this is a problem is to get them user feedback. So don't hesitate and don't hold back. Make sure EDAD knows your frustrations. I'm really glad you are having a good experience, on the other hand, with Windows Admin Center, I've been personally working with that team quite a bit, and they still have some bugs to clean up, but honestly that product has come a long way from where it was a few years ago and I'm glad to hear the feedback from a customer, we don't hear much about that product. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:54 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Andrew, Well done on providing such clear instructions. I use the various Microsoft portals daily and it annoys me to the point of rage the keyboard acrobatics that are required. Menus that can be expanded don't say. Some navigation is through a list view, some is through a tree view, some is through standard links. Sometimes buttons are incorrectly marked as tabs, the list goes on and on. But then Microsoft do really well in other areas. Such as the clean UI for the Windows admin centre. I just wish there was consistency. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Sent: Monday 27 April 2020 4:54 p.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi, Just tested in latest Chrome and Chromium Edge: Go to admin.microsoft.com and log in. You are now in the admin portal of Microsoft 365, use down arrow and when you hear users etc press enter to go into the menu. You can now cursor up and down through the menu and expand the items as required, although it doesn't tell you whether it can be expanded, once you expand the item by hitting enter it will tell you its been expanded. At the bottom of the menu is a show more option which gives you a new menu, in there you can go into all admin centers. Once you do this you need to tab out of the menu where you can then find the link to the admin center you want. Hope this helps. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Troy Hergert <thergert@vision-forward.org> Sent: 27 April 2020 16:37 To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi timmothy, This is Troy from the blind sys admins list. You've helped me before with jaws and the o365 admin centers. I'm taking an online course on O365 but have ongoing trouble getting jaws to navigate the O365 admin center. I need to be able to bring up the list of all my admin centers. I go to Admin.microsoft.com, log in as global admin. Expand the apps menu, locate admin in the apps list and hit space bar. That's supposed to present me with all my admin centers but jaws does not find that list. Can you advise me how to bring up the admin centers so Jaws can read it? Using jaws 2020 and IE. Thanks. Troy ### -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Spaulding <spaulding@icanbrew.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 12:07 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Hi, You should send this issue to edad@microsoft.com to be sure they are aware of it; they may be able to suggest any additional workarounds to the below. -----Original Message----- From: Kieran Little via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 11:36 AM To: 'Mailing list for blind system administrators' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Kieran Little <kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams I am getting this all the time with teams ATM, no matter what I am doing. Using both NVDA latest stable build and JFW 2020. I've found the way to get around it is to restore the window and then maximise it again. Started happening a couple of weeks ago. You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64 bit). It was last updated on 09/03/2020. Kieran Little IT Apprentice (Solution Design Assurance) Information Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Service desk: 01670 627004 Direct: 01670 623699 Mobile: 07966325130 Email: kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk Website: www.northumberland.gov.uk -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nestrud <ccn@chrisnestrud.com> Sent: 31 March 2020 16:01 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Lately I've been using screen sharing in Microsoft Teams so that one or more coworkers can watch what I'm doing. The actual sharing part works well, but when I go back into the Teams window to end sharing, I'm unable to tab to any controls. The only way that I've found to end sharing is to press alt+f4 which also ends the call. Has anyone else come across this problem? Versions: JAWS 2019.1912.19 You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64-bit). It was last updated on 3/6/20. Chris _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Save Time Do It Online! We have made a few key improvements to our site to make our services easy to access. Now you can do everything from paying your council tax, to reporting a faulty street light online. Go to: www.northumberland.gov.uk and click 'pay, apply or report' to access the relevant forms. This email is intended solely for the individual or individuals to whom it is addressed, and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this email is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from any computer. All email communication may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with internal policy and relevant legislation. [Northumberland County Council] _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
Thanks for getting back to me Ryan, I understand what your saying about logging reports. But I'm not usually in a position to do this. There are a few solid reasons. But all are surmountable given the right motivation. The motivation here is action and less conversation. I'm not being abrupt. I'll explain what I mean below: 1. I've logged bugs and issues for years now and I get a few standard responses. (A) Please describe how it should work? This is really frustrating when you tell the support person that it's completely not readable and they ask you how it should work. (B) they completely don't understand the application that they are supporting. For example I reported the read only edit area issue in OneDrive . I can't properly interact with and read text files using that app in IOS. 2. I'm not an employee of Microsoft. Sure, it's in my best interest to make sure that Microsoft are informed of accessibility related issues, but I have a life and that life involves fulfilling obligations to my employer, my family and myself. Writing a detailed bug report to Microsoft for them to disregard most of it and ask a lot of the same questions again makes me less than motivated to bother. I just don't have the time to spend. 3. I also understand that I'm being very unfair. Microsoft have made major strides forward in the past few years but even with your work and the work of others striving for more accessible applications in Microsoft, you're working in a highly distributed system. I think back to that frustrating call relating to the combo boxes in Azure. Several teams were on that one call because the team that developed the combobox are different to the team developing the rest of the UI / implementing that control. A few years later, the comboboxes are largely accessible but other silly things go wrong. For example, you mentioned the license area in Azure. That uses a similar search function as the users UI in Azure active directory. You can get to that by pressing e or shift plus e but it doesn't work. You actually need to go to the bottom of the screen, press shift c to jump to the first combobox then start typing. That get's you into the search box. I use these tools every day and I'm very practised in getting around them but I am absolutely furious with the inconsistency. Because when everything is going well, the inconsistency is a bit of an annoyance. But when you have a license problem, or a whole lode of users have been locked out, or an a web app stops responding, those inconsistencies are yet more things that I need to think about in an already highly pressured environment. Oh and then for a while, the Office365 portal let me search for users but when I tried to set focus on one, the browser window completely crashed. It's really not good enough. It's better. Don't get me wrong, but it's not good enough. Here's a suggestion. Arrange a monthly call for 1 hour. Ask for input a week before that call from blind system administrators and advanced computer users. Don't let it fall into a rant session but instead make sure there are actions taken from that meeting and planned deliverables for the next month. If there's a steady stream of progress made, perhaps people like me won't be so frustrated. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart <rshugart@ryanshugart.com> Sent: Tuesday 28 April 2020 2:33 a.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Darragh: I'm sorry you're having issues with the O365 admin interface, I am able to get what I need done using JAWS and Edge Chromium, but agree the UI can be very confusing especially if you don't need to go into the admin interface much. I recently had to mess with the licensing on my personal tenant and while I got what I needed done the UI was laid out in a very confusing way. I've said this before, but everyone having problems with this, please email edad@microsoft.com if you haven't already. We need to get these bugs open for the O365 team, and the only way we can impress upon them that this is a problem is to get them user feedback. So don't hesitate and don't hold back. Make sure EDAD knows your frustrations. I'm really glad you are having a good experience, on the other hand, with Windows Admin Center, I've been personally working with that team quite a bit, and they still have some bugs to clean up, but honestly that product has come a long way from where it was a few years ago and I'm glad to hear the feedback from a customer, we don't hear much about that product. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:54 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Andrew, Well done on providing such clear instructions. I use the various Microsoft portals daily and it annoys me to the point of rage the keyboard acrobatics that are required. Menus that can be expanded don't say. Some navigation is through a list view, some is through a tree view, some is through standard links. Sometimes buttons are incorrectly marked as tabs, the list goes on and on. But then Microsoft do really well in other areas. Such as the clean UI for the Windows admin centre. I just wish there was consistency. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Sent: Monday 27 April 2020 4:54 p.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi, Just tested in latest Chrome and Chromium Edge: Go to admin.microsoft.com and log in. You are now in the admin portal of Microsoft 365, use down arrow and when you hear users etc press enter to go into the menu. You can now cursor up and down through the menu and expand the items as required, although it doesn't tell you whether it can be expanded, once you expand the item by hitting enter it will tell you its been expanded. At the bottom of the menu is a show more option which gives you a new menu, in there you can go into all admin centers. Once you do this you need to tab out of the menu where you can then find the link to the admin center you want. Hope this helps. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Troy Hergert <thergert@vision-forward.org> Sent: 27 April 2020 16:37 To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi timmothy, This is Troy from the blind sys admins list. You've helped me before with jaws and the o365 admin centers. I'm taking an online course on O365 but have ongoing trouble getting jaws to navigate the O365 admin center. I need to be able to bring up the list of all my admin centers. I go to Admin.microsoft.com, log in as global admin. Expand the apps menu, locate admin in the apps list and hit space bar. That's supposed to present me with all my admin centers but jaws does not find that list. Can you advise me how to bring up the admin centers so Jaws can read it? Using jaws 2020 and IE. Thanks. Troy ### -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Spaulding <spaulding@icanbrew.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 12:07 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Hi, You should send this issue to edad@microsoft.com to be sure they are aware of it; they may be able to suggest any additional workarounds to the below. -----Original Message----- From: Kieran Little via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 11:36 AM To: 'Mailing list for blind system administrators' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Kieran Little <kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams I am getting this all the time with teams ATM, no matter what I am doing. Using both NVDA latest stable build and JFW 2020. I've found the way to get around it is to restore the window and then maximise it again. Started happening a couple of weeks ago. You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64 bit). It was last updated on 09/03/2020. Kieran Little IT Apprentice (Solution Design Assurance) Information Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Service desk: 01670 627004 Direct: 01670 623699 Mobile: 07966325130 Email: kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk Website: www.northumberland.gov.uk -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nestrud <ccn@chrisnestrud.com> Sent: 31 March 2020 16:01 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Lately I've been using screen sharing in Microsoft Teams so that one or more coworkers can watch what I'm doing. The actual sharing part works well, but when I go back into the Teams window to end sharing, I'm unable to tab to any controls. The only way that I've found to end sharing is to press alt+f4 which also ends the call. Has anyone else come across this problem? Versions: JAWS 2019.1912.19 You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64-bit). It was last updated on 3/6/20. Chris _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Save Time Do It Online! We have made a few key improvements to our site to make our services easy to access. Now you can do everything from paying your council tax, to reporting a faulty street light online. Go to: www.northumberland.gov.uk and click 'pay, apply or report' to access the relevant forms. This email is intended solely for the individual or individuals to whom it is addressed, and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this email is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from any computer. All email communication may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with internal policy and relevant legislation. [Northumberland County Council] _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
Hey Darragh: No worries, I completely understand where you're coming from. Before I came to Microsoft I was in much the same position you are now, so I get it and I definitely don't think you should spend a lot of time on bug reports. I do know there are people at the EDAD who are familiar with the pro apps, and they should be helping you out, in cases where they don't know for sure they should be working with the product team to figure out the repro. As you said yourself, Microsoft is a big company, speaking from personal experience, you don't even realize how big until you're there. I think I spent my first few months going "Wow, this is huge." Anyway, my point is there are a ton of different teams, using a lot of different design systems, and while we've made a lot of progress teaching them about accessibility there's still a long way to go. Some divisions have different approaches as well, I work with a lot of the teams who build and design Azure, for example, but don't have a lot of visibility at all into the teams that design Office 365. EDAD does have that visibility and that's why they should be your first stop to report an issue. There are also several customer feedback avenues we're working on as well, including some specific to my group in the Cloud+AI division. If anyone is interested, please reach out to me privately and we can see what we can do. Its sometimes difficult to find customers who are blind/visually impaired who are willing and able to work with us on improving our products, but I can say for sure one of the things that seems to motivate a product team the most is to actually see and understand how a customer is struggling with their product to get their job done. A lot of developers don't understand how a screen reader should work and asking what a good experience should be is a valid question, and is a way for the person who knows best, the actual end user who is depending on the product, to step in and give that all important feedback. Again I do understand there needs to be a balance between making your job accessible and actually doing your job but let's see if we can meet in the middle here. Darragh, let me forward this thread to some others in MS and see what they say. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:32 AM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Thanks for getting back to me Ryan, I understand what your saying about logging reports. But I'm not usually in a position to do this. There are a few solid reasons. But all are surmountable given the right motivation. The motivation here is action and less conversation. I'm not being abrupt. I'll explain what I mean below: 1. I've logged bugs and issues for years now and I get a few standard responses. (A) Please describe how it should work? This is really frustrating when you tell the support person that it's completely not readable and they ask you how it should work. (B) they completely don't understand the application that they are supporting. For example I reported the read only edit area issue in OneDrive . I can't properly interact with and read text files using that app in IOS. 2. I'm not an employee of Microsoft. Sure, it's in my best interest to make sure that Microsoft are informed of accessibility related issues, but I have a life and that life involves fulfilling obligations to my employer, my family and myself. Writing a detailed bug report to Microsoft for them to disregard most of it and ask a lot of the same questions again makes me less than motivated to bother. I just don't have the time to spend. 3. I also understand that I'm being very unfair. Microsoft have made major strides forward in the past few years but even with your work and the work of others striving for more accessible applications in Microsoft, you're working in a highly distributed system. I think back to that frustrating call relating to the combo boxes in Azure. Several teams were on that one call because the team that developed the combobox are different to the team developing the rest of the UI / implementing that control. A few years later, the comboboxes are largely accessible but other silly things go wrong. For example, you mentioned the license area in Azure. That uses a similar search function as the users UI in Azure active directory. You can get to that by pressing e or shift plus e but it doesn't work. You actually need to go to the bottom of the screen, press shift c to jump to the first combobox then start typing. That get's you into the search box. I use these tools every day and I'm very practised in getting around them but I am absolutely furious with the inconsistency. Because when everything is going well, the inconsistency is a bit of an annoyance. But when you have a license problem, or a whole lode of users have been locked out, or an a web app stops responding, those inconsistencies are yet more things that I need to think about in an already highly pressured environment. Oh and then for a while, the Office365 portal let me search for users but when I tried to set focus on one, the browser window completely crashed. It's really not good enough. It's better. Don't get me wrong, but it's not good enough. Here's a suggestion. Arrange a monthly call for 1 hour. Ask for input a week before that call from blind system administrators and advanced computer users. Don't let it fall into a rant session but instead make sure there are actions taken from that meeting and planned deliverables for the next month. If there's a steady stream of progress made, perhaps people like me won't be so frustrated. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart <rshugart@ryanshugart.com> Sent: Tuesday 28 April 2020 2:33 a.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Darragh: I'm sorry you're having issues with the O365 admin interface, I am able to get what I need done using JAWS and Edge Chromium, but agree the UI can be very confusing especially if you don't need to go into the admin interface much. I recently had to mess with the licensing on my personal tenant and while I got what I needed done the UI was laid out in a very confusing way. I've said this before, but everyone having problems with this, please email edad@microsoft.com if you haven't already. We need to get these bugs open for the O365 team, and the only way we can impress upon them that this is a problem is to get them user feedback. So don't hesitate and don't hold back. Make sure EDAD knows your frustrations. I'm really glad you are having a good experience, on the other hand, with Windows Admin Center, I've been personally working with that team quite a bit, and they still have some bugs to clean up, but honestly that product has come a long way from where it was a few years ago and I'm glad to hear the feedback from a customer, we don't hear much about that product. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:54 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Andrew, Well done on providing such clear instructions. I use the various Microsoft portals daily and it annoys me to the point of rage the keyboard acrobatics that are required. Menus that can be expanded don't say. Some navigation is through a list view, some is through a tree view, some is through standard links. Sometimes buttons are incorrectly marked as tabs, the list goes on and on. But then Microsoft do really well in other areas. Such as the clean UI for the Windows admin centre. I just wish there was consistency. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Sent: Monday 27 April 2020 4:54 p.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi, Just tested in latest Chrome and Chromium Edge: Go to admin.microsoft.com and log in. You are now in the admin portal of Microsoft 365, use down arrow and when you hear users etc press enter to go into the menu. You can now cursor up and down through the menu and expand the items as required, although it doesn't tell you whether it can be expanded, once you expand the item by hitting enter it will tell you its been expanded. At the bottom of the menu is a show more option which gives you a new menu, in there you can go into all admin centers. Once you do this you need to tab out of the menu where you can then find the link to the admin center you want. Hope this helps. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Troy Hergert <thergert@vision-forward.org> Sent: 27 April 2020 16:37 To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi timmothy, This is Troy from the blind sys admins list. You've helped me before with jaws and the o365 admin centers. I'm taking an online course on O365 but have ongoing trouble getting jaws to navigate the O365 admin center. I need to be able to bring up the list of all my admin centers. I go to Admin.microsoft.com, log in as global admin. Expand the apps menu, locate admin in the apps list and hit space bar. That's supposed to present me with all my admin centers but jaws does not find that list. Can you advise me how to bring up the admin centers so Jaws can read it? Using jaws 2020 and IE. Thanks. Troy ### -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Spaulding <spaulding@icanbrew.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 12:07 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Hi, You should send this issue to edad@microsoft.com to be sure they are aware of it; they may be able to suggest any additional workarounds to the below. -----Original Message----- From: Kieran Little via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 11:36 AM To: 'Mailing list for blind system administrators' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Kieran Little <kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams I am getting this all the time with teams ATM, no matter what I am doing. Using both NVDA latest stable build and JFW 2020. I've found the way to get around it is to restore the window and then maximise it again. Started happening a couple of weeks ago. You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64 bit). It was last updated on 09/03/2020. Kieran Little IT Apprentice (Solution Design Assurance) Information Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Service desk: 01670 627004 Direct: 01670 623699 Mobile: 07966325130 Email: kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk Website: www.northumberland.gov.uk -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nestrud <ccn@chrisnestrud.com> Sent: 31 March 2020 16:01 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Lately I've been using screen sharing in Microsoft Teams so that one or more coworkers can watch what I'm doing. The actual sharing part works well, but when I go back into the Teams window to end sharing, I'm unable to tab to any controls. The only way that I've found to end sharing is to press alt+f4 which also ends the call. Has anyone else come across this problem? Versions: JAWS 2019.1912.19 You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64-bit). It was last updated on 3/6/20. Chris _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Save Time Do It Online! We have made a few key improvements to our site to make our services easy to access. Now you can do everything from paying your council tax, to reporting a faulty street light online. Go to: www.northumberland.gov.uk and click 'pay, apply or report' to access the relevant forms. This email is intended solely for the individual or individuals to whom it is addressed, and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this email is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from any computer. All email communication may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with internal policy and relevant legislation. 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Hi Ryan, I want to say thanks for all the efforts that you have done to make things better. I have my own O365 tenant, but I would like to make a suggestion if this makes sense. Adding to Darragh's comment... If there was a means to give us access to a demo site to test accessibility issues out without us having to mess with our production environments then we could make even more progress because those scheduled conference calls could have any of us demo to the developers what we are dealing with. I did this for one of the largest insurance companies I worked for in recent months as a contractor. We used Azure but it just really didn't work for me. Kind Regards, Billy -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart <rshugart@ryanshugart.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 19:58 To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hey Darragh: No worries, I completely understand where you're coming from. Before I came to Microsoft I was in much the same position you are now, so I get it and I definitely don't think you should spend a lot of time on bug reports. I do know there are people at the EDAD who are familiar with the pro apps, and they should be helping you out, in cases where they don't know for sure they should be working with the product team to figure out the repro. As you said yourself, Microsoft is a big company, speaking from personal experience, you don't even realize how big until you're there. I think I spent my first few months going "Wow, this is huge." Anyway, my point is there are a ton of different teams, using a lot of different design systems, and while we've made a lot of progress teaching them about accessibility there's still a long way to go. Some divisions have different approaches as well, I work with a lot of the teams who build and design Azure, for example, but don't have a lot of visibility at all into the teams that design Office 365. EDAD does have that visibility and that's why they should be your first stop to report an issue. There are also several customer feedback avenues we're working on as well, including some specific to my group in the Cloud+AI division. If anyone is interested, please reach out to me privately and we can see what we can do. Its sometimes difficult to find customers who are blind/visually impaired who are willing and able to work with us on improving our products, but I can say for sure one of the things that seems to motivate a product team the most is to actually see and understand how a customer is struggling with their product to get their job done. A lot of developers don't understand how a screen reader should work and asking what a good experience should be is a valid question, and is a way for the person who knows best, the actual end user who is depending on the product, to step in and give that all important feedback. Again I do understand there needs to be a balance between making your job accessible and actually doing your job but let's see if we can meet in the middle here. Darragh, let me forward this thread to some others in MS and see what they say. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Héiligh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:32 AM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Thanks for getting back to me Ryan, I understand what you're saying about logging reports. But I'm not usually in a position to do this. There are a few solid reasons. But all are surmountable given the right motivation. The motivation here is action and less conversation. I'm not being abrupt. I'll explain what I mean below: 1. I've logged bugs and issues for years now and I get a few standard responses. (A) Please describe how it should work? This is really frustrating when you tell the support person that it's completely not readable and they ask you how it should work. (B) they completely don't understand the application that they are supporting. For example I reported the read only edit area issue in OneDrive . I can't properly interact with and read text files using that app in IOS. 2. I'm not an employee of Microsoft. Sure, it's in my best interest to make sure that Microsoft are informed of accessibility related issues, but I have a life and that life involves fulfilling obligations to my employer, my family and myself. Writing a detailed bug report to Microsoft for them to disregard most of it and ask a lot of the same questions again makes me less than motivated to bother. I just don't have the time to spend. 3. I also understand that I'm being very unfair. Microsoft have made major strides forward in the past few years but even with your work and the work of others striving for more accessible applications in Microsoft, you're working in a highly distributed system. I think back to that frustrating call relating to the combo boxes in Azure. Several teams were on that one call because the team that developed the combobox are different to the team developing the rest of the UI / implementing that control. A few years later, the comboboxes are largely accessible but other silly things go wrong. For example, you mentioned the license area in Azure. That uses a similar search function as the users UI in Azure active directory. You can get to that by pressing e or shift plus e but it doesn't work. You actually need to go to the bottom of the screen, press shift c to jump to the first combobox then start typing. That gets you into the search box. I use these tools every day and I'm very practised in getting around them but I am absolutely furious with the inconsistency. Because when everything is going well, the inconsistency is a bit of an annoyance. But when you have a license problem, or a whole lode of users have been locked out, or an a web app stops responding, those inconsistencies are yet more things that I need to think about in an already highly pressured environment. Oh and then for a while, the Office365 portal let me search for users but when I tried to set focus on one, the browser window completely crashed. It's really not good enough. It's better. Don't get me wrong, but it's not good enough. Here's a suggestion. Arrange a monthly call for 1 hour. Ask for input a week before that call from blind system administrators and advanced computer users. Don't let it fall into a rant session but instead make sure there are actions taken from that meeting and planned deliverables for the next month. If there's a steady stream of progress made, perhaps people like me won't be so frustrated. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart <rshugart@ryanshugart.com> Sent: Tuesday 28 April 2020 2:33 a.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Darragh: I'm sorry you're having issues with the O365 admin interface, I am able to get what I need done using JAWS and Edge Chromium, but agree the UI can be very confusing especially if you don't need to go into the admin interface much. I recently had to mess with the licensing on my personal tenant and while I got what I needed done the UI was laid out in a very confusing way. I've said this before, but everyone having problems with this, please email edad@microsoft.com if you haven't already. We need to get these bugs open for the O365 team, and the only way we can impress upon them that this is a problem is to get them user feedback. So don't hesitate and don't hold back. Make sure EDAD knows your frustrations. I'm really glad you are having a good experience, on the other hand, with Windows Admin Center, I've been personally working with that team quite a bit, and they still have some bugs to clean up, but honestly that product has come a long way from where it was a few years ago and I'm glad to hear the feedback from a customer, we don't hear much about that product. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Darragh Ó Haleigh <d@digitaldarragh.com> Reply-To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Date: Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:54 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Andrew, Well done on providing such clear instructions. I use the various Microsoft portals daily and it annoys me to the point of rage the keyboard acrobatics that are required. Menus that can be expanded don't say. Some navigation is through a list view, some is through a tree view, some is through standard links. Sometimes buttons are incorrectly marked as tabs, the list goes on and on. But then Microsoft do really well in other areas. Such as the clean UI for the Windows admin centre. I just wish there was consistency. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Sent: Monday 27 April 2020 4:54 p.m. To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi, Just tested in latest Chrome and Chromium Edge: Go to admin.microsoft.com and log in. You are now in the admin portal of Microsoft 365, use down arrow and when you hear users etc press enter to go into the menu. You can now cursor up and down through the menu and expand the items as required, although it doesn't tell you whether it can be expanded, once you expand the item by hitting enter it will tell you its been expanded. At the bottom of the menu is a show more option which gives you a new menu, in there you can go into all admin centers. Once you do this you need to tab out of the menu where you can then find the link to the admin center you want. Hope this helps. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Troy Hergert <thergert@vision-forward.org> Sent: 27 April 2020 16:37 To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] JAWS ANO365 admin centers Hi timmothy, This is Troy from the blind sys admins list. You've helped me before with jaws and the o365 admin centers. I'm taking an online course on O365 but have ongoing trouble getting jaws to navigate the O365 admin center. I need to be able to bring up the list of all my admin centers. I go to Admin.microsoft.com, log in as global admin. Expand the apps menu, locate admin in the apps list and hit space bar. That's supposed to present me with all my admin centers but jaws does not find that list. Can you advise me how to bring up the admin centers so Jaws can read it? Using jaws 2020 and IE. Thanks. Troy ### -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Spaulding <spaulding@icanbrew.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 12:07 PM To: Mailing list for blind system administrators <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Hi, You should send this issue to edad@microsoft.com to be sure they are aware of it; they may be able to suggest any additional workarounds to the below. -----Original Message----- From: Kieran Little via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 11:36 AM To: 'Mailing list for blind system administrators' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Kieran Little <kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams I am getting this all the time with teams ATM, no matter what I am doing. Using both NVDA latest stable build and JFW 2020. I've found the way to get around it is to restore the window and then maximise it again. Started happening a couple of weeks ago. You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64 bit). It was last updated on 09/03/2020. Kieran Little IT Apprentice (Solution Design Assurance) Information Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Service desk: 01670 627004 Direct: 01670 623699 Mobile: 07966325130 Email: kieran.little@northumberland.gov.uk Website: www.northumberland.gov.uk -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nestrud <ccn@chrisnestrud.com> Sent: 31 March 2020 16:01 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Screen sharing with Microsoft Teams Lately I've been using screen sharing in Microsoft Teams so that one or more coworkers can watch what I'm doing. The actual sharing part works well, but when I go back into the Teams window to end sharing, I'm unable to tab to any controls. The only way that I've found to end sharing is to press alt+f4 which also ends the call. Has anyone else come across this problem? Versions: JAWS 2019.1912.19 You have Microsoft Teams Version 1.3.00.4461 (64-bit). It was last updated on 3/6/20. Chris _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Save Time Do It Online! We have made a few key improvements to our site to make our services easy to access. Now you can do everything from paying your council tax, to reporting a faulty street light online. Go to: www.northumberland.gov.uk and click 'pay, apply or report' to access the relevant forms. This email is intended solely for the individual or individuals to whom it is addressed, and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this email is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from any computer. All email communication may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with internal policy and relevant legislation. [Northumberland County Council] _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org
participants (3)
-
Billy Irwin -
Darragh Ó Héiligh -
Ryan Shugart