I'd hate it if MS were to implement a full screen reader in their desktop operating systems. Whilst the pricing of traditional AT leaves a bit to be desired, I much prefer a dedicated company working on these sort of things so they can (amongst other things) push updates as and when the product needs them and not when the rest of the company determins there will be a combined software update. When was the last time an iOS or OSX update was released that just fixed VoiceOver issues? Didn't think so. I agree that the best root would be for MS to buy someone like NV Access with a view to bundling a certified compatible version of NVDA with the OS and letting them release versions as and when they feel it is needed; they could choose to release a version in the way that they are doing at the moment but could also have the option of pushing it to everyone via Windows update once some MS funded QA has taken place. Cheers, Ben. On 1/13/15, Sean Murphy wrote:

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions/sugg...

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions/sugg...

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it. At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator. The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed. A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing. As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable. Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone. Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products. Greg B. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it. At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator. The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed. A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing. As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable. Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone. Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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I’m with you, I don’t think FS will react any differently with more pressure. They already have the pressure of Apple including a viable screen reader in all their devices as well as Google on the phone side. There are various windows screen readers and at this point all the other options I figure have to be having impact on FS. I wouldn’t want to be in the screen reader business at this point. On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:43 AM, John G Heim wrote:

I doubt that at this point additional competition could provide more motivation for Freedom Scientific. My guess is that Freedom Scientific already has all the competition it needs.

My opinion is that we shouldn't make plans which assume Freedom Scientific will be around in 5 years. Any company can go out of business. And I have no information that FS is particularly vulnerable at this point. I just think it would be wise to not assume they'll be around in a few years.

I am against doing anything for the purpose of helping or hindering Freedom Scientific. That's out of our hands and considering the effect of our decisions on FS can only lead us down the wrong path.

On 01/13/2015 07:43 AM, Greg B. wrote:

...

I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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John, It wasn't anyone's main intention to impact FreedomScientific in any way by encouraging Microsoft to develop a fully featured screen reader. Very simply, try to use a tablet at the moment running windows 8.1. The best experience is with Narator. This even works in IE and word along with the on screen keyboard. Jaws and NVDA fail terribly with touch screens. Now also look at Office on an iPhone or iPad. The accessibility is outstanding. Microsoft are taking accessibility seriously but we need to keep the pressure on so that every new team set up under Nadella knows about the impact of not including accessibility. They can do it. They've proven it with the touch first version of Office for IOS. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 13 January 2015 15:44 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition I doubt that at this point additional competition could provide more motivation for Freedom Scientific. My guess is that Freedom Scientific already has all the competition it needs. My opinion is that we shouldn't make plans which assume Freedom Scientific will be around in 5 years. Any company can go out of business. And I have no information that FS is particularly vulnerable at this point. I just think it would be wise to not assume they'll be around in a few years. I am against doing anything for the purpose of helping or hindering Freedom Scientific. That's out of our hands and considering the effect of our decisions on FS can only lead us down the wrong path. On 01/13/2015 07:43 AM, Greg B. wrote:

I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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John, It wasn't anyone's main intention to impact FreedomScientific in any way by encouraging Microsoft to develop a fully featured screen reader.

Very simply, try to use a tablet at the moment running windows 8.1. The best experience is with Narator. This even works in IE and word along with

But are windows phone accessible for blind users? -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:29 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fullyfuncional windows 10screen readerpetition I didn't express an opinion on the petition itself. At this point I have no opinion. But here are some thoughts ... You have probably heard of the Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act (CVAA). This law requires smart phones sold in the USA to be accessible. I have to admit to being a little lax in my responsibilities as President of IAVIT in that I haven't really familiarized myself with the law. I am guessing it delegates to a agency the task of deciding what qualifis as accessible. But the quality of narrator on your Windows phone is almost certainly Microsoft's answer to this law. I've been in a lot of debates with Mac users who insist that Apple is just a nice company and Microsoft is evil. Mostly, they acknowledge my point that Apple had to create voiceover or they wouldn't be able to sell Macs to schools. There's another law that says computers in schools have to be accessible. The one point that people make that does carry some weight is that voiceover is way better than it has to be to just get by legally. I'm not actually sure that's true. But it is true that voiceover has gotten better with each release and Apple does seem to be committed to keeping it a quality screen reader. My guess is that the reason Apple is so committed to voiceover is that nothing is going to make a school administrator angrier than to buy a bunch of Macs because they come with a screen reader only to find out they don't work with whatever software they happen to have in the classroom. Take, for example, the NFB's lawsuit against those 3 universities that were going to buy all their students Kindles. I'm sure the school administrators weren't exactly happy with the NFB. But I'll bet they weren't too happy with Amazon either. So I don't know what to think about the petition yet. Mostly I think it is a grain of sand on a huge beach. There are forces at work here way beyond our control. It may have been this list where I talked about this last week. I don't think most blind people realize the amount of work that is being done on their behalf. Like the Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Actand the Marakesh Treaty on copyright exemption -- this stuff didn't come out of no where. I do admit that sometimes a small thing can make a big difference. That NFB lawsuit, for example, was like a dagger thrust from a halfling rogue that takes down a stone giant (if you play D&D). On 01/13/2015 09:55 AM, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote: the on screen keyboard.

Jaws and NVDA fail terribly with touch screens.

Now also look at Office on an iPhone or iPad. The accessibility is

outstanding.

Microsoft are taking accessibility seriously but we need to keep the

pressure on so that every new team set up under Nadella knows about the impact of not including accessibility. They can do it. They've proven it with the touch first version of Office for IOS.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 13 January 2015 15:44 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

I doubt that at this point additional competition could provide more

motivation for Freedom Scientific. My guess is that Freedom Scientific already has all the competition it needs.

My opinion is that we shouldn't make plans which assume Freedom Scientific

will be around in 5 years. Any company can go out of business. And I have no information that FS is particularly vulnerable at this point. I just think it would be wise to not assume they'll be around in a few years.

I am against doing anything for the purpose of helping or hindering

Freedom Scientific. That's out of our hands and considering the effect of our decisions on FS can only lead us down the wrong path.

On 01/13/2015 07:43 AM, Greg B. wrote:

...

I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be

...

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows

fixed. 10.

...

...

...

Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggest i o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader- t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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John, It wasn't anyone's main intention to impact FreedomScientific in any way by encouraging Microsoft to develop a fully featured screen reader.

Very simply, try to use a tablet at the moment running windows 8.1. The best experience is with Narator. This even works in IE and word along with

I meen are narrator in the phone? -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:36 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fullyfuncional windows 10screen readerpetition The only truly accessible appsare Phone, Messages and Mail from the brief look I've had. No storeapps hhave been accessible. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: 13 January 2015 16:35 To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fullyfuncional windows 10screen readerpetition But are windows phone accessible for blind users? -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:29 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fullyfuncional windows 10screen readerpetition I didn't express an opinion on the petition itself. At this point I have no opinion. But here are some thoughts ... You have probably heard of the Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act (CVAA). This law requires smart phones sold in the USA to be accessible. I have to admit to being a little lax in my responsibilities as President of IAVIT in that I haven't really familiarized myself with the law. I am guessing it delegates to a agency the task of deciding what qualifis as accessible. But the quality of narrator on your Windows phone is almost certainly Microsoft's answer to this law. I've been in a lot of debates with Mac users who insist that Apple is just a nice company and Microsoft is evil. Mostly, they acknowledge my point that Apple had to create voiceover or they wouldn't be able to sell Macs to schools. There's another law that says computers in schools have to be accessible. The one point that people make that does carry some weight is that voiceover is way better than it has to be to just get by legally. I'm not actually sure that's true. But it is true that voiceover has gotten better with each release and Apple does seem to be committed to keeping it a quality screen reader. My guess is that the reason Apple is so committed to voiceover is that nothing is going to make a school administrator angrier than to buy a bunch of Macs because they come with a screen reader only to find out they don't work with whatever software they happen to have in the classroom. Take, for example, the NFB's lawsuit against those 3 universities that were going to buy all their students Kindles. I'm sure the school administrators weren't exactly happy with the NFB. But I'll bet they weren't too happy with Amazon either. So I don't know what to think about the petition yet. Mostly I think it is a grain of sand on a huge beach. There are forces at work here way beyond our control. It may have been this list where I talked about this last week. I don't think most blind people realize the amount of work that is being done on their behalf. Like the Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Actand the Marakesh Treaty on copyright exemption -- this stuff didn't come out of no where. I do admit that sometimes a small thing can make a big difference. That NFB lawsuit, for example, was like a dagger thrust from a halfling rogue that takes down a stone giant (if you play D&D). On 01/13/2015 09:55 AM, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote: the on screen keyboard.

Jaws and NVDA fail terribly with touch screens.

Now also look at Office on an iPhone or iPad. The accessibility is

outstanding.

Microsoft are taking accessibility seriously but we need to keep the

pressure on so that every new team set up under Nadella knows about the impact of not including accessibility. They can do it. They've proven it with the touch first version of Office for IOS.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 13 January 2015 15:44 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

I doubt that at this point additional competition could provide more

motivation for Freedom Scientific. My guess is that Freedom Scientific already has all the competition it needs.

My opinion is that we shouldn't make plans which assume Freedom Scientific

will be around in 5 years. Any company can go out of business. And I have no information that FS is particularly vulnerable at this point. I just think it would be wise to not assume they'll be around in a few years.

I am against doing anything for the purpose of helping or hindering

Freedom Scientific. That's out of our hands and considering the effect of our decisions on FS can only lead us down the wrong path.

On 01/13/2015 07:43 AM, Greg B. wrote:

...

I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be

...

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows

fixed. 10.

...

...

...

Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggest i o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader- t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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John, It wasn't anyone's main intention to impact FreedomScientific in any way by encouraging Microsoft to develop a fully featured screen reader. Very simply, try to use a tablet at the moment running windows 8.1. The best experience is with Narator. This even works in IE and word along with the on screen keyboard. Jaws and NVDA fail terribly with touch screens. Now also look at Office on an iPhone or iPad. The accessibility is outstanding. Microsoft are taking accessibility seriously but we need to keep the pressure on so that every new team set up under Nadella knows about the impact of not including accessibility. They can do it. They've proven it with the touch first version of Office for IOS. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 13 January 2015 15:44 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition I doubt that at this point additional competition could provide more motivation for Freedom Scientific. My guess is that Freedom Scientific already has all the competition it needs. My opinion is that we shouldn't make plans which assume Freedom Scientific will be around in 5 years. Any company can go out of business. And I have no information that FS is particularly vulnerable at this point. I just think it would be wise to not assume they'll be around in a few years. I am against doing anything for the purpose of helping or hindering Freedom Scientific. That's out of our hands and considering the effect of our decisions on FS can only lead us down the wrong path. On 01/13/2015 07:43 AM, Greg B. wrote:

I have voted for this using every email address I have. I think the scare of Microsoft taking things into its own hands could shake up companies like Freedom Scientific and make them work a little harder to improve their products.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:57 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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And what window eyes requere 2 gb ram.. Not for tabblet users.. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows10screen readerpetition Yes that was the screen reader to which I referred. I don't use that screen reader either. Because in 97, when I was trained by my local rehabilitation agency I was taught Jaws. As, at that time, Window-eyes involved more complex key strokes than could be accomodated by the limited use of one of my hands. I never have been sorry the choice of Jaws was encouraged. I, since, have been most pleased with that screen reader. I never have used NVDA. Though, I have read stellar comments regarding its versatility and functionality. Verses the other free screen readers available to us blind screen reader users in the past. Narrator, and lookout being two. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mattias" To: "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows10screen readerpetition Angel do you meen windows eyes? I have never understand window eyes To many settings -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 13:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it. At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator. The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed. A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing. As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable. Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone. Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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Equally. Look at office on IOS. It's accessibility is exceptional. Your response? -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Marshall F. Scott Sent: 13 January 2015 14:05 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition I have just one comment about this idea. As a long-term Mac user, I was involve with Voiceover from the beginning. The one problem with Voiceover is that Apple did not require applications to include Voiceover. This means that developers MAY include Voiceover support. And guess what, developers of big programs (Microsoft, for example) didn’t do so. Microsoft Office on OS X still isn’t useable with Voiceover. And there aren’t alternative screen readers available because there isn’t a market for them. Marshall

On Jan 13, 2015, at 5:05 AM, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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What I was trying to say is that unless Microsoft requires that other developers make their programs use the screen reader, there might not be any way to access programs that don’t voluntarily make their programs screen reader friendly. Marshall

On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:07 AM, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

Equally. Look at office on IOS. It's accessibility is exceptional. Your response?

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Marshall F. Scott Sent: 13 January 2015 14:05 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

I have just one comment about this idea. As a long-term Mac user, I was involve with Voiceover from the beginning. The one problem with Voiceover is that Apple did not require applications to include Voiceover. This means that developers MAY include Voiceover support. And guess what, developers of big programs (Microsoft, for example) didn’t do so. Microsoft Office on OS X still isn’t useable with Voiceover. And there aren’t alternative screen readers available because there isn’t a market for them. Marshall

...

On Jan 13, 2015, at 5:05 AM, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, I agree with Darragh, It's one of those things where we might not use it ourselves but it's not bad thing and only good things can come from it. Barry. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: 13 January 2015 12:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it. At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator. The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed. A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing. As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable. Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone. Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestio ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-to -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Hahaha. Naive? No. Not at all. I have previously explained the minimum and maximum benefits of this campaign. I also pay for the SMA every two years. You are completely missing the point. I don't think that a Microsoft or an Apple screen reader is ever going to surpass the functionality of NVDA, Jaws or Window eyes. Again, explaining by example, look at Voiceover. Voiceover is a fine screen reader but it doesn't do anything extra. It doesn't have a skim reading command. It's not scriptable. It doesn't support frames. It doesn't monitor parts of the screen that might be important. Orca is very similar in many ways. They are built on a framework where the applications are developed to expose more information to the assistive software. Then the assistive software has less to do to extract that information for the user. The purpse behind this is to decrease the work involved to make the screen reader a viable tool. It shifts the responsibility to the application developers. IT leaves the screen reader to do what it is meant to. Portray that exposed data in a manor that is understandable to the user. This again reiterates my point. If Microsoft go down the route of developing a screen reader, they will mirror what has been done by Apple and Sun before. They will make the job easier by structuring application development in such a way as to expose more relevant information to the assistive software. That will make it easier on the Microsoft screen reader developers but it will also make it easier on Freedom Scientific, GW Micro and NVAccess. If FreedomScientific for example don't need to hook as low they will be able to spend time on approving efficiencies. Something that someone in FS said to me a few years ago stuck. HE said IOS has a brilliant screen reader. It makes apps really accessible. Jaws is a brilliant screen reader also. But it goes one step further. IT makes applications efficient. This is why Jaws, NVDA and Window eyes are going to stay relevant in the market even if there is a Windows screen reader. The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special. I am not expecting a fully featured screen reader to come from Microsoft tomorrow but if they start to work toward this, apps will become a lot more accessible. This is why I firmly believe we need to push toward this. I'm speaking with a lot of experience here. Please read my messages carefully before considering to say that my view is Naive. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 16:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Darragh, would you please elaborate more on this sentence? I know that you are developer, and I'd like to hear your point of view about it... "The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special." Have you checked out their documentation about writing the app modules for the apps as well as writing the add-ons? There is currently the prototype of the remote support app being developed for nvda as well. Personally what i'm missing is extended office support for working in documents under ms office. That is for me the only situation where i have to turn on jaws to use it. What features as a developer and system admin are you missing in NVDA in order to get to the same level as jaws Thanks for the answers. On 13.1.2015. 17:32, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

Hahaha. Naive? No. Not at all. I have previously explained the minimum and maximum benefits of this campaign. I also pay for the SMA every two years.

You are completely missing the point. I don't think that a Microsoft or an Apple screen reader is ever going to surpass the functionality of NVDA, Jaws or Window eyes.

Again, explaining by example, look at Voiceover. Voiceover is a fine screen reader but it doesn't do anything extra. It doesn't have a skim reading command. It's not scriptable. It doesn't support frames. It doesn't monitor parts of the screen that might be important. Orca is very similar in many ways. They are built on a framework where the applications are developed to expose more information to the assistive software. Then the assistive software has less to do to extract that information for the user. The purpse behind this is to decrease the work involved to make the screen reader a viable tool. It shifts the responsibility to the application developers. IT leaves the screen reader to do what it is meant to. Portray that exposed data in a manor that is understandable to the user. This again reiterates my point. If Microsoft go down the route of developing a screen reader, they will mirror what has been done by Apple and Sun before. They will make the job easier by structuring application development in such a way as to expose more relevant information to the assistive software. That will make it easier on the Microsoft screen reader developers but it will also make it easier on Freedom Scientific, GW Micro and NVAccess.

If FreedomScientific for example don't need to hook as low they will be able to spend time on approving efficiencies. Something that someone in FS said to me a few years ago stuck. HE said IOS has a brilliant screen reader. It makes apps really accessible. Jaws is a brilliant screen reader also. But it goes one step further. IT makes applications efficient. This is why Jaws, NVDA and Window eyes are going to stay relevant in the market even if there is a Windows screen reader. The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special.

I am not expecting a fully featured screen reader to come from Microsoft tomorrow but if they start to work toward this, apps will become a lot more accessible. This is why I firmly believe we need to push toward this.

I'm speaking with a lot of experience here. Please read my messages carefully before considering to say that my view is Naive.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 16:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

...

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

Mario, What I mean is, NVDA is fine if the user isn't using non-standard applications. For example: IE11 debug tools Visual studio VRanger VSphere Fiddler Juniper web UI's Applications that require the java access bridge Remote desktop Server 2012 SQL management studio SCCM SCOM Netbotz Data protection Pointsec All of these applications simply won't be accessible if you are using NVDA. Let's look at the applications that are supported by NVDA. Outlook Word Powerpoint Excel Command prompt Windows core MMC IE Firefox Outlook for example it doesn't automatically speak the suggested contacts when your writing a new message. The calendar support isn't half as good as that provided by Jaws. There aren't a fraction of the shortcuts in NVDA as there are in Jaws for extracting important information from messages, meetings, tasks etc. I think NVDA is a great project and I sincerely want it to surpass everything else because when it works, it works quite well. There are systems where Jaws doesn't work particularly well for me and I have been testing the remote access plugin for the past two months and when I say it will be a game changer for many of us I'm not over stating it. Still, I have complicated websites that I need to use that are written in HTML5 and Jaws scrapes through. NVDA utterly fails. I have dozens of different systems to access every day and NVDA doesn't give that to me. I need to be able to debug code and step through it. NVDA doesn't let me do that. I need to write a quick Email to a contact who's name I only half remember. NVDA doesn't do this as efficiently. I decided I don't want that tile on the far left of the start screen. NVDA doesn't give me any way of doing this. IT doesn't give any feedback either. I have a lot of weird applications that were made 15 years ago that I depend on. Jaws works with these with a lot of jaws cursor movements. NVDA craps it's self when I try to find the dodgy icon beside the drop down list. NVDA is good but it's not a system administrator tool quite yet. It's simply not flexible enough. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Mario Percinic Sent: 13 January 2015 18:06 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition Darragh, would you please elaborate more on this sentence? I know that you are developer, and I'd like to hear your point of view about it... "The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special." Have you checked out their documentation about writing the app modules for the apps as well as writing the add-ons? There is currently the prototype of the remote support app being developed for nvda as well. Personally what i'm missing is extended office support for working in documents under ms office. That is for me the only situation where i have to turn on jaws to use it. What features as a developer and system admin are you missing in NVDA in order to get to the same level as jaws Thanks for the answers. On 13.1.2015. 17:32, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

Hahaha. Naive? No. Not at all. I have previously explained the minimum and maximum benefits of this campaign. I also pay for the SMA every two years.

You are completely missing the point. I don't think that a Microsoft or an Apple screen reader is ever going to surpass the functionality of NVDA, Jaws or Window eyes.

Again, explaining by example, look at Voiceover. Voiceover is a fine screen reader but it doesn't do anything extra. It doesn't have a skim reading command. It's not scriptable. It doesn't support frames. It doesn't monitor parts of the screen that might be important. Orca is very similar in many ways. They are built on a framework where the applications are developed to expose more information to the assistive software. Then the assistive software has less to do to extract that information for the user. The purpse behind this is to decrease the work involved to make the screen reader a viable tool. It shifts the responsibility to the application developers. IT leaves the screen reader to do what it is meant to. Portray that exposed data in a manor that is understandable to the user. This again reiterates my point. If Microsoft go down the route of developing a screen reader, they will mirror what has been done by Apple and Sun before. They will make the job easier by structuring application development in such a way as to expose more relevant information to the assistive software. That will make it easier on the Microsoft screen reader developers but it will also make it easier on Freedom Scientific, GW Micro and NVAccess.

If FreedomScientific for example don't need to hook as low they will be able to spend time on approving efficiencies. Something that someone in FS said to me a few years ago stuck. HE said IOS has a brilliant screen reader. It makes apps really accessible. Jaws is a brilliant screen reader also. But it goes one step further. IT makes applications efficient. This is why Jaws, NVDA and Window eyes are going to stay relevant in the market even if there is a Windows screen reader. The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special.

I am not expecting a fully featured screen reader to come from Microsoft tomorrow but if they start to work toward this, apps will become a lot more accessible. This is why I firmly believe we need to push toward this.

I'm speaking with a lot of experience here. Please read my messages carefully before considering to say that my view is Naive.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 16:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition

...

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows 10. Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggest i o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader- t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259 _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows

Sorry but what? Vo are not scriptable? Eh yes? Enable applescript -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:32 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcionalwindows 10screen readerpetition Hahaha. Naive? No. Not at all. I have previously explained the minimum and maximum benefits of this campaign. I also pay for the SMA every two years. You are completely missing the point. I don't think that a Microsoft or an Apple screen reader is ever going to surpass the functionality of NVDA, Jaws or Window eyes. Again, explaining by example, look at Voiceover. Voiceover is a fine screen reader but it doesn't do anything extra. It doesn't have a skim reading command. It's not scriptable. It doesn't support frames. It doesn't monitor parts of the screen that might be important. Orca is very similar in many ways. They are built on a framework where the applications are developed to expose more information to the assistive software. Then the assistive software has less to do to extract that information for the user. The purpse behind this is to decrease the work involved to make the screen reader a viable tool. It shifts the responsibility to the application developers. IT leaves the screen reader to do what it is meant to. Portray that exposed data in a manor that is understandable to the user. This again reiterates my point. If Microsoft go down the route of developing a screen reader, they will mirror what has been done by Apple and Sun before. They will make the job easier by structuring application development in such a way as to expose more relevant information to the assistive software. That will make it easier on the Microsoft screen reader developers but it will also make it easier on Freedom Scientific, GW Micro and NVAccess. If FreedomScientific for example don't need to hook as low they will be able to spend time on approving efficiencies. Something that someone in FS said to me a few years ago stuck. HE said IOS has a brilliant screen reader. It makes apps really accessible. Jaws is a brilliant screen reader also. But it goes one step further. IT makes applications efficient. This is why Jaws, NVDA and Window eyes are going to stay relevant in the market even if there is a Windows screen reader. The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special. I am not expecting a fully featured screen reader to come from Microsoft tomorrow but if they start to work toward this, apps will become a lot more accessible. This is why I firmly believe we need to push toward this. I'm speaking with a lot of experience here. Please read my messages carefully before considering to say that my view is Naive. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 16:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition 10.

...

...

Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Please just vote for this. Nothing bad will come of it.

At minimum it will highlight this need and at most it will result in a little more consideration added to Nerator.

The more MS work on a screen reader, the more they will find the problems that FS, GW and NV struggle with and hopefully the more will be fixed.

A Windows screen reader won't necessarily spell the end for Freedom Scientific or NVDA. It will generate more competition and this can only be a good thing.

As I said as well, if Microsoft develop a screen reader, they will most likely base it on UIA and maybe UIA will become more wide spread and more reliable.

Also, Maybe Microsoft will learn from their trials and tribulations and release better documentation and standards for third party app developers to follow. This should be a win win for everyone.

Go vote. IT takes 3 seconds.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 12:03 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

If this fully functioning screen reader is implemented, it will be interesting to read the faults with it found by those who cried for it in the first place, and how different it will be from that which the specialist companies provide now. Why don't those who want a fully functioning screen reader just purchase Microsoft Office 10 or above, and have their screen reader? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10 screen readerpetition

...

Sorry I don't agree with this. If ms want to include a full screen reader then sponser NVDA Or buy one of the available screen readers. Even better provide a full API for accessiblity like Apple and let the small specialist companies do the thing. Then you get the best of both worlds.

My experience is the part

...

On 13 Jan 2015, at 9:34 am, Mario Percinic wrote:

Hey everyone. someone has started a petition on microsoft's own windows 10 forum to add a fully functional screen reader to windows. If the petition gets enough votes, microsoft will consider it as an addition to windows

Not on IOS. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of mattias Sent: 13 January 2015 19:12 To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcionalwindows 10screen readerpetition Sorry but what? Vo are not scriptable? Eh yes? Enable applescript -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh Sent: den 13 januari 2015 17:32 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcionalwindows 10screen readerpetition Hahaha. Naive? No. Not at all. I have previously explained the minimum and maximum benefits of this campaign. I also pay for the SMA every two years. You are completely missing the point. I don't think that a Microsoft or an Apple screen reader is ever going to surpass the functionality of NVDA, Jaws or Window eyes. Again, explaining by example, look at Voiceover. Voiceover is a fine screen reader but it doesn't do anything extra. It doesn't have a skim reading command. It's not scriptable. It doesn't support frames. It doesn't monitor parts of the screen that might be important. Orca is very similar in many ways. They are built on a framework where the applications are developed to expose more information to the assistive software. Then the assistive software has less to do to extract that information for the user. The purpse behind this is to decrease the work involved to make the screen reader a viable tool. It shifts the responsibility to the application developers. IT leaves the screen reader to do what it is meant to. Portray that exposed data in a manor that is understandable to the user. This again reiterates my point. If Microsoft go down the route of developing a screen reader, they will mirror what has been done by Apple and Sun before. They will make the job easier by structuring application development in such a way as to expose more relevant information to the assistive software. That will make it easier on the Microsoft screen reader developers but it will also make it easier on Freedom Scientific, GW Micro and NVAccess. If FreedomScientific for example don't need to hook as low they will be able to spend time on approving efficiencies. Something that someone in FS said to me a few years ago stuck. HE said IOS has a brilliant screen reader. It makes apps really accessible. Jaws is a brilliant screen reader also. But it goes one step further. IT makes applications efficient. This is why Jaws, NVDA and Window eyes are going to stay relevant in the market even if there is a Windows screen reader. The screen reader with the most to lose is NVDA because at the moment, it's not doing anything particularly special. I am not expecting a fully featured screen reader to come from Microsoft tomorrow but if they start to work toward this, apps will become a lot more accessible. This is why I firmly believe we need to push toward this. I'm speaking with a lot of experience here. Please read my messages carefully before considering to say that my view is Naive. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Angel Sent: 13 January 2015 16:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition How naive you are my friend. The petition merely asked that the creation of a fully functioning screen reader be considered. That is the least which might be done. How will this "fully functioning" screen reader differ from what specialized companies offer now? If indeed there were to be such incorporated in the latest windows operating systems. The specialized companies will be put as out of business as was that which produced the outspoken screen reader. Thus putting blind employees out of work, in a field where experience is most to be desired, and least to be found for blind Information technology specialists in the mainstream area of information technology. But, we blind consumers seem to care little for their plight. As long as we can get something for nearly nothing. Considering the cost of such a "free screen reader" will be negligible. Because of the volume of sales achieved by Microsoft's windows operating system. I am one who will never avail myself of an operating system which by its existence actively puts my fellow blind citizens out of work. As was demonstrated by the non existence of the outspoken screen reader. I know I am only a single person. But, that is why I don't, and will never own an Apple product. Nor will I ever subscribe to I-Tunes. Employment opportunities are limited enough for us blind individuals. I don't have to make their job search more difficult. By actively doing my best to put the companies for whom they work out of business. I would want the same sort of caring and consideration. If I were in their position. Which is why I proudly pay for Jaws upgrades each two years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darragh Ó Héiligh" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Fully funcional windows 10screen readerpetition 10.

...

...

Please sign in and spred it around as much as possible. If we get enough votes, there is huge possibility that we could press microsoft to actually do something about it.

the link for the petition is: https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggesti o ns/suggestions/6942363-add-a-native-fully-functional-screen-reader-t o -wi

-- Mario Percinic Accessibility consultant mario.percinic@gmail.com skype: acousticman gsm: +385922630259

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins