I remember another story where Leo and the team had the same incident but with another subject. i have the feeling those people have something against accessibility and disabled people in general. Am 16.01.2019 um 17:35 schrieb John G Heim:

You are a blind sys admin and you don't have a problem with the guy saying blind people should just get help when they need to install Windows?

On 1/16/19 9:13 AM, Jared Stofflett wrote:

...

I have no problem with what was said on that podcast. As someone who's blind and just set up a new Windows laptop I find cortana's "a little wifi" spiel insulting. I would expect Narrator to start talking after some period of time, or if I don't want to wait just enable it with control+alt+win like normal.

On 1/15/19, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

...

Thanks everyone. From Wednesday morning I would ask that everyone tweets @Thurrott with the following:

#AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

You could write a message like this:

Because Microsoft invested in accessibility, I can use SCCM to administer thousands of workstations. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Narrator in Windows 10 is becoming a very powerful screen reader. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Because Microsoft works with companies like Freedom Scientific and NVAccess, Windows 10 is very accessible. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

I administer 104,000 users in active directory. It's fully accessible. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

I'm a full stack developer thanks to Visual studio. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Windows Weekly airs again tomorrow, Wednesday.  I really want the messages relating to accessibility to be clear in Paul's, Mary's and Leo's mind while they sit down to present tomorrow's show.

Feel free to ask people to retweet.

I agree that The OOB experience could be better. And I know I don't need to say it but just for the benefit of others, the points I was making weren't related to the OOB.  Certain people who disagree with me are trying to conflate my points to associate them with frustrations around OOB but my issues are with how Paul attacked accessibility. Not the way he attacked the OOB.

I'm just saying this again here. Not because I think people are misunderstanding me but because I have been misunderstood, sometimes intentionally on some other forums.

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson Sent: Monday 14 January 2019 20:57 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

Sorry only just got around to this now - I don't really listen to many podcasts so had to make a bit of time.

I originally thought this was the Windows 10 RE mode speech we were talking about but we were talking about the OOBE.  I am not sure what the end decision is on the talking OOBE now, but I agree that the way they implemented it was probably a bit dumb in the sense that everyone else I know of hates the thing and wants to get rid of it.  Also if you try and use it without enabling Narrator you will have a tough time, so I think it needs addressing.  However the podcast was totally wrong and the comments made were at best misguided and at worse will only serve to clarify people's misguided opinion on what people with little or no sight can do on a computer.

I am not sure what the state of the talking OOBE will be going forward, but I like the way Apple do this after a while of silence, and then only giving the minimum of noise.

If I can find it the BCAB (presenter me!) did a presentation on installing Windows from a completely blank disk and everyone was extremely pleased with the work that MS did.  However I did do a survey afterwards about how many people would try this on their own and in a room of 40 people only 2 said they would try it actively which although I wasn't surprised, it did make me feel a bit sad.

Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Barry Toner Sent: 14 January 2019 20:32 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

I have reposted Daragh's link to the British Computer Of The Blind Association discussion list.  It is important that word is gotten out there, and that people contact Paul, Leo and the team at TWIT.tv and our voice is heard.  This is an utter disgrace.   I've just about calmed down, after a few hours and a fair number of cigarettes.

Thank you so so much Darragh for picking up on this and addressing this.  As I've said on the BCAB list, talking on the lists is grand but to effect change the guys at TWIT.tv need to hear about this.  It's important that we contact them directly and that the powers that be see Darragh's BLOG and accompanying comments.

Barry.

-----Original Message----- From: Billy Irwin [mailto:billy.irwin@outlook.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 5:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

I also submitted something to your blog and also sent an email to Leo directly.

Best

Billy L. Irwin - K9OH

-----Original Message----- From: Barry Toner Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 12:10 PM To: jheim@math.wisc.edu; Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

I've submitted a reply on your BLOG.  I hope it went through OK.

Barry

-----Original Message----- From: John G Heim [mailto:jheim@math.wisc.edu] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 4:36 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; Andrew Hodgson Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

I think this issue highlights a point I'veen trying to make for years. While the number of blind sys admins might be fairly small, to them, accessibility is extremely important. There probably are a lot more blind sys admins than most people realize. But having to call someone over to help you install Windows, as the podcaster suggested,  is not a trivial thing. it is a matter of whether you can actually perform the job you were hired to do or not. There aren't that many tweeks Microsoft can make to Windows that can change the careers, and therefore the very lives, of a whole class of people.

Accessibility problems aren't like other bugs. A typical bug doesn't make it harder for one guy to keep his job compared to another guy. A typical bug doesn't put a whole class of people at a disadvantage in the job market.

On 1/14/19 5:21 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

Have you had any response to paul on Twitter yet?  He has responded to me a couple of times there, but this is a different point entirely.

Andrew. ________________________________________ From: Darragh Ó Héiligh [d@digitaldarragh.com] Sent: 14 January 2019 11:16 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Thanks for highlighting this.

I recorded this to hopefully get the message out that Paul Thurrott was very wrong in what he was saying.  I'm hoping that they will correct him on Wednesday.

-----Original Message----- From: mhysnm1964@gmail.com Sent: Sunday 13 January 2019 23:26 To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

All,

The below podcast I would suggest you have a listen too. The original podcast is from Windows weekly episode 603 where this host makes a large number of negative statements against accessibility for the vision impaired in windows. They are design to get an reaction. The host of the below podcast does an excellent job in highlighting the errors.

http://www.digitaldarragh.com/2019/01/10/windows-weekly-603-paul-thurr ott-is -so-very-wrong/#comment-49688

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

--- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Even if I grant that Kortana is annoying, what has that got to do with the suggestion that a blind sys admin ought to get help doing his job? I gotta say, if the guy had just said that Kortana is annoying, I doubt it would have come up on this list. On 1/16/19 12:08 PM, Jared Stofflett wrote:

Given his experience with accessibility I have no issue with him saying blind people should get sited help installing Windows. Kortana does not come up talking about narrator, it comes up with a demeaning your to dumb to set up a computer on your own so I'm going to hold your hand and walk you through everything spiel. Because of this he would have no way of knowing that Narrator is a good screen reader and that it can be used to do Windows setup. I'd have a bigger issue if Microsoft had actually done a compitant job with first run and install accessibility such as Apple. There's no reason your computer should start shouting at you with a dumb personality. If the implimentation was that Narrator started speaking five minutes after install started assuming there was no user action up to that point and the hosts were complaining about that then I would be willing to consider that they were against accessibility. Currently there just against crappy accessibility implimentations that make Windows less usable for the vast majority of users including me.

On 1/16/19, Simon Eigeldinger wrote:

...

I remember another story where Leo and the team had the same incident but with another subject. i have the feeling those people have something against accessibility and disabled people in general.

Am 16.01.2019 um 17:35 schrieb John G Heim:

...

You are a blind sys admin and you don't have a problem with the guy saying blind people should just get help when they need to install Windows?

On 1/16/19 9:13 AM, Jared Stofflett wrote:

...

I have no problem with what was said on that podcast. As someone who's blind and just set up a new Windows laptop I find cortana's "a little wifi" spiel insulting. I would expect Narrator to start talking after some period of time, or if I don't want to wait just enable it with control+alt+win like normal.

On 1/15/19, Darragh Ó Héiligh wrote:

...

Thanks everyone. From Wednesday morning I would ask that everyone tweets @Thurrott with the following:

#AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

You could write a message like this:

Because Microsoft invested in accessibility, I can use SCCM to administer thousands of workstations. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Narrator in Windows 10 is becoming a very powerful screen reader. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Because Microsoft works with companies like Freedom Scientific and NVAccess, Windows 10 is very accessible. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

I administer 104,000 users in active directory. It's fully accessible. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

I'm a full stack developer thanks to Visual studio. #AccessibilityWins @Thurrott  @TWiT #WindowsWeekly #LeoLaporte

Windows Weekly airs again tomorrow, Wednesday.  I really want the messages relating to accessibility to be clear in Paul's, Mary's and Leo's mind while they sit down to present tomorrow's show.

Feel free to ask people to retweet.

I agree that The OOB experience could be better. And I know I don't need to say it but just for the benefit of others, the points I was making weren't related to the OOB.  Certain people who disagree with me are trying to conflate my points to associate them with frustrations around OOB but my issues are with how Paul attacked accessibility. Not the way he attacked the OOB.

I'm just saying this again here. Not because I think people are misunderstanding me but because I have been misunderstood, sometimes intentionally on some other forums.

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Hodgson Sent: Monday 14 January 2019 20:57 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

Sorry only just got around to this now - I don't really listen to many podcasts so had to make a bit of time.

I originally thought this was the Windows 10 RE mode speech we were talking about but we were talking about the OOBE.  I am not sure what the end decision is on the talking OOBE now, but I agree that the way they implemented it was probably a bit dumb in the sense that everyone else I know of hates the thing and wants to get rid of it.  Also if you try and use it without enabling Narrator you will have a tough time, so I think it needs addressing.  However the podcast was totally wrong and the comments made were at best misguided and at worse will only serve to clarify people's misguided opinion on what people with little or no sight can do on a computer.

I am not sure what the state of the talking OOBE will be going forward, but I like the way Apple do this after a while of silence, and then only giving the minimum of noise.

If I can find it the BCAB (presenter me!) did a presentation on installing Windows from a completely blank disk and everyone was extremely pleased with the work that MS did.  However I did do a survey afterwards about how many people would try this on their own and in a room of 40 people only 2 said they would try it actively which although I wasn't surprised, it did make me feel a bit sad.

Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Barry Toner Sent: 14 January 2019 20:32 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

I have reposted Daragh's link to the British Computer Of The Blind Association discussion list.  It is important that word is gotten out there, and that people contact Paul, Leo and the team at TWIT.tv and our voice is heard.  This is an utter disgrace.   I've just about calmed down, after a few hours and a fair number of cigarettes.

Thank you so so much Darragh for picking up on this and addressing this.  As I've said on the BCAB list, talking on the lists is grand but to effect change the guys at TWIT.tv need to hear about this.  It's important that we contact them directly and that the powers that be see Darragh's BLOG and accompanying comments.

Barry.

-----Original Message----- From: Billy Irwin [mailto:billy.irwin@outlook.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 5:12 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

I also submitted something to your blog and also sent an email to Leo directly.

Best

Billy L. Irwin - K9OH

-----Original Message----- From: Barry Toner Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 12:10 PM To: jheim@math.wisc.edu; Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Hi,

I've submitted a reply on your BLOG.  I hope it went through OK.

Barry

-----Original Message----- From: John G Heim [mailto:jheim@math.wisc.edu] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 4:36 PM To: Blind sysadmins list; Andrew Hodgson Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

I think this issue highlights a point I'veen trying to make for years. While the number of blind sys admins might be fairly small, to them, accessibility is extremely important. There probably are a lot more blind sys admins than most people realize. But having to call someone over to help you install Windows, as the podcaster suggested,  is not a trivial thing. it is a matter of whether you can actually perform the job you were hired to do or not. There aren't that many tweeks Microsoft can make to Windows that can change the careers, and therefore the very lives, of a whole class of people.

Accessibility problems aren't like other bugs. A typical bug doesn't make it harder for one guy to keep his job compared to another guy. A typical bug doesn't put a whole class of people at a disadvantage in the job market.

On 1/14/19 5:21 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

Have you had any response to paul on Twitter yet?  He has responded to me a couple of times there, but this is a different point entirely.

Andrew. ________________________________________ From: Darragh Ó Héiligh [d@digitaldarragh.com] Sent: 14 January 2019 11:16 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

Thanks for highlighting this.

I recorded this to hopefully get the message out that Paul Thurrott was very wrong in what he was saying.  I'm hoping that they will correct him on Wednesday.

-----Original Message----- From: mhysnm1964@gmail.com Sent: Sunday 13 January 2019 23:26 To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Podcast on why accessibility is not a win.

All,

The below podcast I would suggest you have a listen too. The original podcast is from Windows weekly episode 603 where this host makes a large number of negative statements against accessibility for the vision impaired in windows. They are design to get an reaction. The host of the below podcast does an excellent job in highlighting the errors.

http://www.digitaldarragh.com/2019/01/10/windows-weekly-603-paul-thurr ott-is -so-very-wrong/#comment-49688

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

--- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org