On 7/16/19 2:51 PM, codeofdusk@gmail.com wrote:

Support UI automation. I'm working on a rewrite of NVDA's Windows Console support and UIA has allowed for vast performance and stability improvement.

I fully agree. Convenient copy/paste to/from the terminal via keyboard commands would be very much appreciated. I assume screen reader commands have to be used to select text in the terminal. The idea, however, is to have well documented keyboard operations for copy/paste that don't conflict with keystrokes used by applications running in the terminal. Also, being able to access scrollback history effectively would be useful, if the terminal implements it. With multiple terminal sessions running, obviously there need to be keyboard commands to switch between them quickly.

I'd like to see the ability to move quicly and easily around full screen terminal applications, with the ability to know things like which row/column I'm on, be able to set regions of the terminal to read on commmand or silence, also awareness of inverted text serving as status bars as cursors, etc. I don't know if the terminal has native support for searching the history, but that would be incredibly useful for me as a blind person. % ls ... 130 lines of output % <be able to search back for .login.TMP or whatever.> I realize I could do something like... % ls | grep login.TMP but this doesn't show me the context of what's around it, even using the -C grep flag. I hope this is enough to inspire. Jim On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 06:53:19PM +0000, Billy Irwin wrote:

Hi Ryan,

I would love to see it look like an instant message window if that makes sense. Have a text box where you can type commands and another to view the output. This way you can move through the output and view it without needing to go for example into a JAWS cursor. Hope this helps.

Best,

Billy -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 2:49 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Hi: For those of you who want the "messenger" approach, how would you want full screen apps to be handled, apps like VI and/or Emacs that move the cursor around and draw things in different parts of the screen? Do you use an editor on the remote machine or edit on your local machine and upload? Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Anatoliy Shudrya <anatoliyshudrya@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience I'd love to be able to use error keys and review output of commands without using JAWS cursor or any other complicated ways to read the terminal screen. It is also very important to be able to read word by word, character by character not only line by line or block by block. Select, copy and paste all comes in handy in the typing line and in the output screen. All sounds like basics, but some of these basics have been missing in command line and PowerShell. Messenger style terminal sounds like a very good idea, type commands in the typing box and review them by shift tab and error keys in the review window. Maybe instead of messenger style terminal, to have a command mode to activate and type commands and when done with command, deactivate command mode and review the output with error keys, just an idea. I am glad to hear this is being worked on. Thank you -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 11:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262 _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Thanks Billy. That kind of mirrors my experiences, I've always found running a remote editor in a terminal window very frustrating, at least when using a Windows screen reader, but wanted to check and see how important that scenario was for people. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Billy Irwin <billy.irwin@outlook.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 4:07 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi Ryan, That is a really good question. I've never been successful in doing that with JAWS via SecureCRT. I personally like to use WinSCP to edit files when I need to make changes. Maybe if having a way for the system when you bring up a screen to edit it could bring it up in Notepad or something, but from a programming perspective, I doubt this would be practical. Best, Billy -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:52 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi: For those of you who want the "messenger" approach, how would you want full screen apps to be handled, apps like VI and/or Emacs that move the cursor around and draw things in different parts of the screen? Do you use an editor on the remote machine or edit on your local machine and upload? Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Anatoliy Shudrya <anatoliyshudrya@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience I'd love to be able to use error keys and review output of commands without using JAWS cursor or any other complicated ways to read the terminal screen. It is also very important to be able to read word by word, character by character not only line by line or block by block. Select, copy and paste all comes in handy in the typing line and in the output screen. All sounds like basics, but some of these basics have been missing in command line and PowerShell. Messenger style terminal sounds like a very good idea, type commands in the typing box and review them by shift tab and error keys in the review window. Maybe instead of messenger style terminal, to have a command mode to activate and type commands and when done with command, deactivate command mode and review the output with error keys, just an idea. I am glad to hear this is being worked on. Thank you -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 11:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262 _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Thanks Billy. That kind of mirrors my experiences, I've always found running a remote editor in a terminal window very frustrating, at least when using a Windows screen reader, but wanted to check and see how important

Not sure I understand the issue of using a remote text editor. If by "remote text editor" you just mean running something like vi on a Linux server that you have ssh'd to, this is no problem at all for me and, if it were a problem, I'd be almost powerless to do anything at the technical end of my job. As long as whatever application you are using as a terminal emulation software package on your Windows machine does accurate cursor tracking, all will be fine. As I have said many times on this list, Reflections is by far the best terminal emulation programme I have ever used in terms of accessibility and honouring cursor positions with 100% accuracy. I have used it in my work situation for over 20 years and I would never, ever think of using anything else. OK, I use the JAWS cursor to review screen output but I see no issue at all with this. I have written simple JAWS scripts to allow me to use braille display keys to switch into JAWS cursor mode when moving up and down the screen and they work very well for me. With these simple JAWS scripts, it is an effortless task to switch between JAWS and PC cursor as it is made to be part of the action performed when you hit the key on your braille display to go up a line for example. If anyone tells me they don't use braille, I'm sorry but I would just give up the discussion because it is just crazy to try to do a technical admin role without braille feedback. You just can't work sensibly at all if you can't invoke editors on remote Linux servers if you are trying to do a sys admin role on a remote Linux server. It would be madness to have to copy files from the Linux server on to your local PC to edit it. Regards, Phil. -----Original Message----- From: Jason White via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: 20 July 2019 00:34 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com>; Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience On 7/16/19 7:16 PM, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote: that scenario was for people. It saves having to copy files back and forth, or boot into Linux just to edit a file in an ssh session - so, yes, I would say it's important for some people. I have other reasons to run Linux, of course - the point is that if I'm already in Windows and make an ssh connection, I shouldn't have to reboot to be able to use a remote text editor effectively. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Thanks Billy. That kind of mirrors my experiences, I've always found running a remote editor in a terminal window very frustrating, at least when using a Windows screen reader, but wanted to check and see how important

Hi Billy, It was never my intention to suggest there are no other solutions to mine. I understand and respect all you say. I apologise if the tone of my email wasn't right. I just wanted to get across how I do things and, if that helps someone else find the right solution, then I'm pleased. Regards, Phil. -----Original Message----- From: Billy Irwin <billy.irwin@outlook.com> Sent: 20 July 2019 14:54 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi Phil, I have to respectfully disagree with some of your statements. While I am well versed in Braille, I do not use it on a regular basis doing Sysadmin work. I've always been visually impaired since birth and I am 37 now. I learned braille starting in the 3rd grade but always was a print reader until my early 30s. You are discounting others based off of your own experiences, but not meeting people where they are. When blind people have this attitude that braille is the only way to go just like with the all mighty white cane, you leave out others which isn't very nice nor does it support the advancement of new ideas. You also need to consider other non-JAWS users. JAWS isn't the be all end all TTS. While I mainly use JAWS, I am open to NVDA and Voiceover. Whatever is developed it should support as many people and their respective software instead of being too specific. Some people don't have access to very expensive braille displays. This doesn't mean they can't do their jobs efficiently. It is nice that you have found a solution that works for you, but this might not be the same of others. I've found a lot of times that JAWS doesn't always track the cursor even with SecureCRT. Respectfully, Billy -----Original Message----- From: philrigby62@gmail.com <philrigby62@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2019 6:22 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Not sure I understand the issue of using a remote text editor. If by "remote text editor" you just mean running something like vi on a Linux server that you have ssh'd to, this is no problem at all for me and, if it were a problem, I'd be almost powerless to do anything at the technical end of my job. As long as whatever application you are using as a terminal emulation software package on your Windows machine does accurate cursor tracking, all will be fine. As I have said many times on this list, Reflections is by far the best terminal emulation programme I have ever used in terms of accessibility and honouring cursor positions with 100% accuracy. I have used it in my work situation for over 20 years and I would never, ever think of using anything else. OK, I use the JAWS cursor to review screen output but I see no issue at all with this. I have written simple JAWS scripts to allow me to use braille display keys to switch into JAWS cursor mode when moving up and down the screen and they work very well for me. With these simple JAWS scripts, it is an effortless task to switch between JAWS and PC cursor as it is made to be part of the action performed when you hit the key on your braille display to go up a line for example. If anyone tells me they don't use braille, I'm sorry but I would just give up the discussion because it is just crazy to try to do a technical admin role without braille feedback. You just can't work sensibly at all if you can't invoke editors on remote Linux servers if you are trying to do a sys admin role on a remote Linux server. It would be madness to have to copy files from the Linux server on to your local PC to edit it. Regards, Phil. -----Original Message----- From: Jason White via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: 20 July 2019 00:34 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com>; Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience On 7/16/19 7:16 PM, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote: that scenario was for people. It saves having to copy files back and forth, or boot into Linux just to edit a file in an ssh session - so, yes, I would say it's important for some people. I have other reasons to run Linux, of course - the point is that if I'm already in Windows and make an ssh connection, I shouldn't have to reboot to be able to use a remote text editor effectively. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Hi All I'd add is that I'd like it if screen readers (preferably not just Narrator) were able to track focus in apps like Nano, Vi and Tzdata. In the past I've favoured the approach of using WinSCP to do my editing but this doesn't work that well / at all if you are required to sudo. Perhaps a good compromise would be good copy / paste support although this is already the case IMO & that's not really an accessibility request. I'd be against any approach that made the terminal look / behave any differently with a screen reader enabled - E.G. the messenger approach (even though it has its merrits) as I'd be concerned that it would effect my ability to pair. Cheers, Ben. On 7/17/19, Billy Irwin <billy.irwin@outlook.com> wrote:

Hi Ryan,

That is a really good question. I've never been successful in doing that with JAWS via SecureCRT. I personally like to use WinSCP to edit files when I need to make changes. Maybe if having a way for the system when you bring up a screen to edit it could bring it up in Notepad or something, but from a programming perspective, I doubt this would be practical.

Best,

Billy

-----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:52 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

Hi: For those of you who want the "messenger" approach, how would you want full screen apps to be handled, apps like VI and/or Emacs that move the cursor around and draw things in different parts of the screen? Do you use an editor on the remote machine or edit on your local machine and upload? Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Anatoliy Shudrya <anatoliyshudrya@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

I'd love to be able to use error keys and review output of commands without using JAWS cursor or any other complicated ways to read the terminal screen. It is also very important to be able to read word by word, character by character not only line by line or block by block. Select, copy and paste all comes in handy in the typing line and in the output screen. All sounds like basics, but some of these basics have been missing in command line and PowerShell. Messenger style terminal sounds like a very good idea, type commands in the typing box and review them by shift tab and error keys in the review window. Maybe instead of messenger style terminal, to have a command mode to activate and type commands and when done with command, deactivate command mode and review the output with error keys, just an idea.

I am glad to hear this is being worked on. Thank you

-----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 11:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Ryan, I would suggest that taking input and giving output in the same way that an IRC client does is a function of the shell and not of the terminal. In other words, if you architect the terminal correctly, a shell could be written/modified to take input and give output in this manner. Jim On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:51:53PM +0000, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote:

Hi: For those of you who want the "messenger" approach, how would you want full screen apps to be handled, apps like VI and/or Emacs that move the cursor around and draw things in different parts of the screen? Do you use an editor on the remote machine or edit on your local machine and upload? Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Anatoliy Shudrya <anatoliyshudrya@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

I'd love to be able to use error keys and review output of commands without using JAWS cursor or any other complicated ways to read the terminal screen. It is also very important to be able to read word by word, character by character not only line by line or block by block. Select, copy and paste all comes in handy in the typing line and in the output screen. All sounds like basics, but some of these basics have been missing in command line and PowerShell. Messenger style terminal sounds like a very good idea, type commands in the typing box and review them by shift tab and error keys in the review window. Maybe instead of messenger style terminal, to have a command mode to activate and type commands and when done with command, deactivate command mode and review the output with error keys, just an idea.

I am glad to hear this is being worked on. Thank you

-----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 11:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

I'd be careful using arrow keys natively to do screen review tasks. Often, applications running inside the terminal need these keystrokes. For those of you who've been around long enough to remember dos screen readers, we're essentially redesigning one of those. There are several methods tried that allowed the integration of terminal programs and the screen reader. A couple of points here... First, there was usually some kind of explore or review mode where keystrokes allowed you to reviewed the entire screen, allow you to jump up/down and when appropriate left/right by sentence, line, word, and character. Allowing you to search the screen for text, text attributes, etc. All this is done statically, allowing no real interaction with the application. This static examination of the screen should extend to the history buffer of the terminal. Second, when interacting with the terminal and its application, you could integrate the screen reader and application in several ways... A. Configure the screen reader to track one or more cursors and read changes around the cursor. Cursors can either be the terminal's hardware cursor, or text with particular attributes, for example inverted. B. Configure the screen reader to be aware of regions within the terminal, which would usually be some kind of status bar. These regions were usually silenced, because they changed quite often, and also could be read on demand with a screen reader command. C. Configuring the screen reader to watch for certain strings being sent by the app and perform certain actions. There's probably more to say here, but I think this might be enough to get started. Jim On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 07:41:37PM +0000, Anatoliy Shudrya wrote:

I'd love to be able to use error keys and review output of commands without using JAWS cursor or any other complicated ways to read the terminal screen. It is also very important to be able to read word by word, character by character not only line by line or block by block. Select, copy and paste all comes in handy in the typing line and in the output screen. All sounds like basics, but some of these basics have been missing in command line and PowerShell. Messenger style terminal sounds like a very good idea, type commands in the typing box and review them by shift tab and error keys in the review window. Maybe instead of messenger style terminal, to have a command mode to activate and type commands and when done with command, deactivate command mode and review the output with error keys, just an idea.

I am glad to hear this is being worked on. Thank you

-----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 11:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Ryan, I want to sincerely thank you and your team for the work you are doing and for reaching out to all of us! Best, Billy -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:28 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi: Good question. Technically I guess I'm asking both questions as the new Windows Terminal will be used in both rolls. It will serve as a replacement for the conhost process in Windows which handled command prompt, powershell, Windows Subsystem for Linux, and any console app window. So, at some future point when you bring up a cmd prompt or a bash shell in Windows, instead of the existing console window opening, the new Windows Terminal application will open and manage the session. Since Windows now also includes the OpenSSH client, and you can use Powershell remoting to bring up remote command prompts, those situations will be covered here as well. Thanks. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: philrigby62@gmail.com <philrigby62@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 2:05 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi Ryan, Just trying to clarify what you are asking about here since terminology is often interpreted in different ways by different people. Do you mean the command line on a Windows machine here or do you mean accessing remote machine command lines or something else? I'm from the Linux/Unix world so I'm a bit dumb when it comes to Windows terminology. Cheers, Phil. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: 16 July 2019 19:49 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262 _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

I was going to write a lot of these suggestions but this Email lists them perfectly. I'd expand on item 17 just a little. Powershell presents things in columns quite a bit. OR maybe that's just the way I tend to output my commands. I would really like to be able to move around these columns with standard table reading commands. But the main thing about the console is: Keep it simple. There's usually a lot of text flying around in a console window. One of the reasons I like to use the CLI still is it's flat. There's no messing around. The text is just there and hopefully it's accessible. This is why I now use secure CRT for everything. -----Original Message----- From: mhysnm1964@gmail.com <mhysnm1964@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday 17 July 2019 02:23 To: 'Blind sysadmins list' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Ryan, This is good to see the reach-out from a vendor before release of a updated or new feature. My wish list and I have not reviewed the other responses. My responses are based for a CLI (Command Line Interface) terminal with a screen reader. The comments are really quick notes. 1. Correct cursor tracking with all screen readers. I can navigate the command line by char, word, beginning and end of line, delete from cursor to end of line, etc. The screen reader announces all this information correctly. Speakup on Linux does this brillently. Thus if in Emacs for example. A shortcut command is used to open a search edit area. Then the cursor moves to this edit area and reads out the labels (name) or prompt, plus follows the cursor. 2. Ability of scrolling back the buffer for text which has scrolled off the page. This should be a shortcut key which places the terminal in a history mode. Then the screen reader can use the normal navigation commands like moving by character (left/right arrows), by word (ctrl left and ctrl right arrow), line, etc. selecting and Copying text out of the history is a must. The current information on the screen must be able to reviewed by the screen reader by the methods available. Under the Mac and Linux, the screen reader does this without the need of a special history buffer. But I cannot think of a generic way to do this under windows due to multiple screen readers that are available. 3. Being able to correctly scroll forward and back the command history. Being able to perform reverse search as well. Similar to how Linux works. 4. If a text menu UI appears as you are using another OS ;via ssh or telnet. Being able to correctly follow the focus indicator. Reading out the content when the page is updated. Filtering out decorative characters used in such a menu UI construct. This touches upon VI, Emacs and similar text console apps. 5. Full vt100 and higher support. The issue here with screen readers is when new information is received such as the colour changes from phrase 1 to phrase 2. Most screen readers I have used read both phrases. This links back to the prior point. 6. Titles of tabs which work with screen readers. So you can jump between the tabs and know which terminal session is open. Shortcut keys must be available to support quick jumping. 7. Status bar, being able to move focus to the status bar and interrogate the information. Also the screen reader must be able to detect the status bar and read out the information by using screen reader commands. The status bar should not interfere with normal behaviour. 8. Report of system errors related to the terminal session. Such as the session has disconnected. 9 Support of custom colours for users with low vision. 10 being able to paste, copy and cut information from the command line. 11. All the UI's which are available within the terminal app are accessible. Menus, dialogs, etc.This is outside the CLI console screen. 12. supporting magnification technology. 13. If the size of the window is changed, does not impact the screen reader in any fashion. 14. Using Windows CLI, supporting the option of opening files using the default app would be nice. 15. Launching web pages from the CLI. 16. Being able to open sub-shells like Bash when you are within the windows CLI. This might be outside your scope. 17. Handling multiple column text. That is, if you are in a router like Cisco's iOS-Xe. Some commands list the information in columns. Being able to navigate this effectively would be great. Currently you have to remember the columns and headings. 18. Stopping duplicate text being spoken when information is updated. 19. Supporting Linux Cursers in Windows CLI. So when I write python or other scripting languages. I can use this library. Now I am not sure if this is a limitation of Python or the CLI. 20. Handling full screen text based apps such as VI Emacs is the area of challenge as I see it. As screen readers come in all sizes. How is this done is the challenge area as some screen readers might not have the capability to handle multiple focuses, track text updates, etc. As I understand terminal programs that uses vt100 or other similar terminal protocols. There are codes which are sent with the text to perform specific actions on the screen. Such as changing colours, moving cursor, etc. If the terminal could understand these codes and convert them into a meaningful way to a screen reader if is important. This would be great. Such as the current colour, cursor location, reading out a panel of text, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Billy Irwin <billy.irwin@outlook.com> Sent: Wednesday, 17 July 2019 8:49 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Ryan, I want to sincerely thank you and your team for the work you are doing and for reaching out to all of us! Best, Billy -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:28 PM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi: Good question. Technically I guess I'm asking both questions as the new Windows Terminal will be used in both rolls. It will serve as a replacement for the conhost process in Windows which handled command prompt, powershell, Windows Subsystem for Linux, and any console app window. So, at some future point when you bring up a cmd prompt or a bash shell in Windows, instead of the existing console window opening, the new Windows Terminal application will open and manage the session. Since Windows now also includes the OpenSSH client, and you can use Powershell remoting to bring up remote command prompts, those situations will be covered here as well. Thanks. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: philrigby62@gmail.com <philrigby62@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 2:05 PM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi Ryan, Just trying to clarify what you are asking about here since terminology is often interpreted in different ways by different people. Do you mean the command line on a Windows machine here or do you mean accessing remote machine command lines or something else? I'm from the Linux/Unix world so I'm a bit dumb when it comes to Windows terminology. Cheers, Phil. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: 16 July 2019 19:49 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Cc: Ryan Shugart <ryshugar@microsoft.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the ultimate terminal experience Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262 _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list -- blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org To unsubscribe send an email to blind-sysadmins-leave@lists.hodgsonfamily.org

Hi, Echoing what Steve said. In addition I don't know whether anyone has tried this but I have moved away from PuTTY and other SSH clients on Windows now to the built-in SSH client. It works really well in my opinion and is just like being in the command prompt. Andrew. ________________________________________ From: Steve Matzura [sm@noisynotes.com] Sent: 16 July 2019 23:40 To: blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience I think the most important thing in an accessible terminal program is for the computer and screenreader cursor to be as tightly locked to the terminal cursor as is programatically possible. I go back to the deep dark DOS days, and I remember terminal emulators like ProComm were excellent at this, no matter what screenreader was being used with them. Most of my workaday tasks were done using this facility. I always knew where my cursor was, I could move it around the terminal emulation window just as if I were moving it around a word-processor document, the terminal cursor never unbound from the computer/screenreader cursor. I've never had that kind of experience with a Windows terminal emulator. Some have come closer than others, but there's always some lag between the two halves of the system, or the screenreader voices something on which the terminal/computer cursor is not focused. If that problem could be solved, it'd be just the best thing. On 7/16/2019 2:48 PM, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote:

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

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Hi, I too have moved to the built-in SSH client for most things now. Overall it works pretty well. I just get tired of changing cursors back and forth to review output of large data sets. It would be nice if tabbed data could be reviewed like a table, but I don’t think there is an easy way to make that work. Working with Nano or VI does present a unique challenge never the less. -----Original Message----- From: Simon Eigeldinger <simon.eigeldinger@vol.at> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:31 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>; Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi, Same here. I created various batch files that start various servers. so you can run multiple connections at once. Greetings, Simon Am 17.07.2019 um 11:24 schrieb Andrew Hodgson:

Hi,

Echoing what Steve said. In addition I don't know whether anyone has tried this but I have moved away from PuTTY and other SSH clients on Windows now to the built-in SSH client. It works really well in my opinion and is just like being in the command prompt.

Andrew. ________________________________________ From: Steve Matzura [sm@noisynotes.com] Sent: 16 July 2019 23:40 To: blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

I think the most important thing in an accessible terminal program is for the computer and screenreader cursor to be as tightly locked to the terminal cursor as is programatically possible. I go back to the deep dark DOS days, and I remember terminal emulators like ProComm were excellent at this, no matter what screenreader was being used with them. Most of my workaday tasks were done using this facility. I always knew where my cursor was, I could move it around the terminal emulation window just as if I were moving it around a word-processor document, the terminal cursor never unbound from the computer/screenreader cursor. I've never had that kind of experience with a Windows terminal emulator. Some have come closer than others, but there's always some lag between the two halves of the system, or the screenreader voices something on which the terminal/computer cursor is not focused. If that problem could be solved, it'd be just the best thing.

On 7/16/2019 2:48 PM, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote:

...

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

---

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Thanks everyone for the feedback. This is really good stuff and I'm going to pass this onto the Windows terminal people and some people on the Narrator team and see what we can do to start a dialog around this. Again I can't guarantee you'll see this in Windows Terminal when it comes out, but I'll definitely advocate for this kind of UI. An interesting question is what part of the picture is up to the terminal client and what part is up to the screen reader itself. I think there's going to have to be a combination of responsibilities here, which is why someone from Narrator should be involved as well. I am really glad someone brought up the point about tables, as I've been asked about that by a few people on the terminal team. I agree it'd be great to review information using table reading like commands. One really nice feature in Powershell is I can take any table output and put it into a .CSV file that I can review in Excel and work with there, but that is a lot more clunky than just being able to quickly browse the table like a sighted person can. I think there would be some technical challenges in making this work, but its worth mentioning the feedback and seeing where it goes. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Simon Eigeldinger <simon.eigeldinger@vol.at> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 8:38 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>; Billy Irwin <billy.irwin@outlook.com> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience Hi Billy, NVDA does that perfectly. you don't need to switch cursors. thats why i have switched many years and it works fine. It's like using speakup or orca. I don't know if jaws would move over to a different way of using review modes. Greetings, Simon Am 17.07.2019 um 17:34 schrieb Billy Irwin:

Hi,

I too have moved to the built-in SSH client for most things now. Overall it works pretty well. I just get tired of changing cursors back and forth to review output of large data sets. It would be nice if tabbed data could be reviewed like a table, but I don’t think there is an easy way to make that work. Working with Nano or VI does present a unique challenge never the less.

-----Original Message----- From: Simon Eigeldinger <simon.eigeldinger@vol.at> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:31 AM To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org>; Andrew Hodgson <andrew@hodgson.io> Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

Hi,

Same here. I created various batch files that start various servers. so you can run multiple connections at once.

Greetings, Simon

Am 17.07.2019 um 11:24 schrieb Andrew Hodgson:

...

Hi,

Echoing what Steve said. In addition I don't know whether anyone has tried this but I have moved away from PuTTY and other SSH clients on Windows now to the built-in SSH client. It works really well in my opinion and is just like being in the command prompt.

Andrew. ________________________________________ From: Steve Matzura [sm@noisynotes.com] Sent: 16 July 2019 23:40 To: blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Re: the ultimate terminal experience

I think the most important thing in an accessible terminal program is for the computer and screenreader cursor to be as tightly locked to the terminal cursor as is programatically possible. I go back to the deep dark DOS days, and I remember terminal emulators like ProComm were excellent at this, no matter what screenreader was being used with them. Most of my workaday tasks were done using this facility. I always knew where my cursor was, I could move it around the terminal emulation window just as if I were moving it around a word-processor document, the terminal cursor never unbound from the computer/screenreader cursor. I've never had that kind of experience with a Windows terminal emulator. Some have come closer than others, but there's always some lag between the two halves of the system, or the screenreader voices something on which the terminal/computer cursor is not focused. If that problem could be solved, it'd be just the best thing.

On 7/16/2019 2:48 PM, Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins wrote:

...

Hello everyone: I wanted to throw a question out to everyone. As we are working with the new Windows Terminal product to insure it is accessible and works well with assistive technologies, I wanted to reach out to this list and find out what would be the ideal terminal experience for you? What would you be looking for and want in a new terminal program from an accessibility standpoint, something that would set it aside from the rest and really make it an enjoyable experience to use, not just something you can use? I'm definitely going to bring the feedback to the Windows Terminal team, and while I can't guarantee it will all be acted on, it will certainly help set a direction and way to move forward. Thanks much. Ryan

Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+AI Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262

---

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