Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

You wonder why WPF hasn't been made accessible on the screen readers side of the equasion? Would cut down on inquiries. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Mika Pyyhkala Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 10:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface. Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement. Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind. In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design. Best, Mika -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Katherine I think there are several reasons for that. The accessibility APIs are in WPF, its just UIA on the backend, I think its more a question of things not being implemented properly. One big issue in SCCM, not the only one but a big one, is that a lot of buttons just haven't been labled. That's not a problem with WPF or UIA, that's just programmers not doing what they're supposed to be doing, probably because they're under a lot of time pressure. I think UIA itself has a few bugts in it because it wasn't properly tested, I kind of suspect that the screen reader vendors were putting off implementing it until the last possible minute and when they had to, well, they had to and the bugs started coming out. I don't work for any of the AT companies, but based on how things progressed I suspect that's a large part of what happened as far as that goes. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Katherine Moss [Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 8:21 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager You wonder why WPF hasn't been made accessible on the screen readers side of the equasion? Would cut down on inquiries. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Mika Pyyhkala Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 10:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface. Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement. Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind. In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design. Best, Mika -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Thanks a lot Mika. I think from the Microsoft angle, if you have a TAM or similar kind of contact, and you haven't already, letting them know about these issues would be a really good start as the more Microsoft hears from us the better. While I am not against the 508 angle, I just don't know if there are any federal agencies running this software. As I said before, I'm sure there are considering what SCCM does but its just not something I have any specifics on as the only federal employees I know have no visibility into their IT departments. I'd be curious to know how the 508 issues were addressed for SCCM, but my big guess is they just were overlooked during the purchase. Section 508 is great in theory but I have a feeling is not heavily enforced, especially in cases like this where you can probably count the number of blind Config Manager admins on one hand. I would, however, be interested in learning more about these Powershell scripts you have and just what they do, feel free to right me off list on that if you'd rather. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Mika Pyyhkala [Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 8:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface. Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement. Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind. In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design. Best, Mika -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Thanks for the info Chris, good to know. I can imagine why the VA would want to move as much as they can to OS X or Linux or similar, but I’m sure they’ll never be able to do that 100%, especially for clients and such as they’ll have apps they need to keep running that only run on Windows. So, I’m sure SCCM has to play a small part there to patch the clients and push software to them unless they have another solution. I’ve tried to reach out to a few other federal contacts I know, but perhaps I was wrong about SCCM’s use in the federal government. Still doesn’t change my accessibility expectations though, it still should be fully accessible. I’ll see what happens this Friday, but to be completely honest I’m not expecting too much, as I’ve been talking with our tam about this for three years. Still though, need to keep trying. Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:25 AM, Christopher McMillan wrote:

Well I agree on approaching your TAM on this but as a former Department of Veteran's Affairs Employee, the Federal Government's server's are in a mass state of flux. After the security breaches, many are moving toward Apple OS X servers. But when I did work for the VA and contract with this agency still today, SCCM is not a priority.

Take care Christopher McMillanCEEKTechnologyMSPartner for AccessibilitySkype chrismmcmillan980 333 7400http://linkedin.com/in/christophermcmillanhttp://twitter.com/ceektechnologyc... via http://www.outlook.comWindows 7 Windows 8.1 Build 9600Windows 10 Build 10565Windows 10 Mobile 10572

...

From: rshugart@ryanshugart.com To: blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:18:18 +0000 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

Thanks a lot Mika. I think from the Microsoft angle, if you have a TAM or similar kind of contact, and you haven't already, letting them know about these issues would be a really good start as the more Microsoft hears from us the better. While I am not against the 508 angle, I just don't know if there are any federal agencies running this software. As I said before, I'm sure there are considering what SCCM does but its just not something I have any specifics on as the only federal employees I know have no visibility into their IT departments. I'd be curious to know how the 508 issues were addressed for SCCM, but my big guess is they just were overlooked during the purchase. Section 508 is great in theory but I have a feeling is not heavily enforced, especially in cases like this where you can probably count the number of blind Config Manager admins on one hand. I would, however, be interested in learning more about these Powershell scripts you have and just what they do, feel free to right me off list on that if you'd rather. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Mika Pyyhkala [Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 8:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface.

Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement.

Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind.

In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design.

Best, Mika

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

...

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Absolutely agreed, I love Powershell even if it can be bulky at times, it still does a ton. I will say, however, the SCCM Powershell interface is one of the weaker ones out there. That’s because it was more an after thought, with many new Microsoft tools like Exchange, SQL, and even Windows itself, the GUI tools are actually calling Powershell cmdlets. Many times you can actually have the GUI show you what its doing in Powershell based on the choices you made in the GUI. SCCM, however, is one of the few apps from Microsoft that’s still GUI first, and Powershell is just bolted on. So there are a ton of cmdlets, but they don’t cover everything and can be a little odd to work with at times. I really hope this changes. Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Katherine Moss wrote:

Agreed ... completely. And though it was certainly never designed that way, PowerShell can indeed help us overcome accessibility issues (why I'm trying my darndest to be proficient in it). Other than that it's a cool as heck concept. On the front about consumer space VS. enterprise, all facets of the Microsoft ecosystem should be heeded by the accessibility community, starting with us ...

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 11:18 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

Thanks a lot Mika. I think from the Microsoft angle, if you have a TAM or similar kind of contact, and you haven't already, letting them know about these issues would be a really good start as the more Microsoft hears from us the better. While I am not against the 508 angle, I just don't know if there are any federal agencies running this software. As I said before, I'm sure there are considering what SCCM does but its just not something I have any specifics on as the only federal employees I know have no visibility into their IT departments. I'd be curious to know how the 508 issues were addressed for SCCM, but my big guess is they just were overlooked during the purchase. Section 508 is great in theory but I have a feeling is not heavily enforced, especially in cases like this where you can probably count the number of blind Config Manager admins on one hand. I would, however, be interested in learning more about these Powershell scripts you have and just what they do, feel free to right me off list on that if you'd rather. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Mika Pyyhkala [Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 8:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface.

Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement.

Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind.

In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design.

Best, Mika

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager

Hi: There's a small component that's web-based, but that's mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn't good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That's when they completely broke accessibility. I don't know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I'd be really shocked if they weren't. I just don't know any specifics. I've just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn't have any blind admins and probably still don't. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn't surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don't have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as "passing with exceptions." Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn't care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their "commitment to accessibility" I can trot this out in front of them, and be like "that's sure working well isn't it." Ryan

...

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn't the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn't the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I'd share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft's accessibility history with this product hasn't exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn't call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I'm holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we'll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I'm meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn't seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Thanks a lot Mika. I think from the Microsoft angle, if you have a TAM or similar kind of contact, and you haven't already, letting them know about these issues would be a really good start as the more Microsoft hears from us the better. While I am not against the 508 angle, I just don't know if there are any federal agencies running this software. As I said before, I'm sure there are considering what SCCM does but its just not something I have any specifics on as the only federal employees I know have no visibility into their IT departments. I'd be curious to know how the 508 issues were addressed for SCCM, but my big guess is they just were overlooked during the purchase. Section 508 is great in theory but I have a feeling is not heavily enforced, especially in cases like this where you can probably count the number of blind Config Manager admins on one hand. I would, however, be interested in learning more about these Powershell scripts you have and just what they do, feel free to right me off list on that if you'd rather. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Mika Pyyhkala [Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 8:11 AM To: 'Blind sysadmins list' Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager We are also running SCCM 2012 and I have encountered some of the same difficulties with the WPF interface. Let us know on or off the list how we can help you with either Microsoft or with the federal government angle. I don't personally know any system admins that are feds, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't any or that Section 508 could not be used. I do know a lot of feds who might be able to point us in the right direction and some that are involved in procurement. Also because SCCM isn't widely used in the consumer space, it may not be on the radar of advocacy groups that regularly consult with Microsoft pertaining to accessibility by the blind. In my own case, at least for our initial deployment, we were able to get around many of the issues through PowerShell scripts that automated frequently used functions. We had a great consultant on SCCM who was able to assist us in creating these Powershell scripts. He was readily able to think and work outside the box to make things accessible that weren't accessible by design. Best, Mika -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager Hi: There’s a small component that’s web-based, but that’s mainly enduser facing and not administrator facing. The admin console used to be an MMC-based tool that was really accessible, but when 2012 rolled out, Microsoft decided that wasn’t good enough so made this whole new UI as a WPF-based application. That’s when they completely broke accessibility. I don’t know about sales to the federal government for sure, but I’d be really shocked if they weren’t. I just don’t know any specifics. I’ve just always suspected that federal agencies are simply ignoring section 508 when they purchase this because they didn’t have any blind admins and probably still don’t. Of course, knowing the state of IT in our government, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 2007 version, which was the old MMC-based one, is still in use, so I just don’t have the specifics to know. I saw the VPAT for SCCM at one point and it acknowledged that SCCM failed the test in several areas, although they counted it as “passing with exceptions.” Most of the accessibility bugs are things a competent screen reader user would discover within the first 5 minutes (if not 30 seconds) of playing with the product, so its pretty obvious Microsoft either did no testing with a screen reader or just doesn’t care, or both. Whenever Microsoft tries to talk about their “commitment to accessibility” I can trot this out in front of them, and be like “that’s sure working well isn’t it." Ryan

On Oct 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

Hi,

My thoughts.

1. Microsoft must be selling this to the USA government. Thus wouldn’t the rehab 508 act force them to comply with accessibility or is the product regarded as back office? 2. Is the product web base, then wouldn’t the 21st century act have some coverage here?

Cheers Saen

...

On 28 Oct 2015, at 11:19 am, Ryan Shugart wrote:

This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Katherine, can you tell us more about this project? SCCM can be quite a beast to get going, accessibility issues aside even, and getting the entire System Center suite up and running is a pretty big project. Big companies bring in many consultants to get it set up just right and even then tweaking it to meet your exact needs is a big project. Where I work, SCCM is the main component of the suite we use, we use SCOM and Orchestrator to much smaller degrees. SCOM mainly for website performance monitoring and Orchestrator for basic automated tasks. From what I've seen, Orchestrator lacks even basic keyboard navigation, and SCOM has basic accessibility but there's a ton of unlabeled graffics. I haven't pushed accessibility issues with those products yet simply because SCCM is what my job most depends on. Ryan ________________________________________ From: Blind-sysadmins [blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] on behalf of Katherine Moss [Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 7:52 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager I read through that and rather like the prospect. (for Window-Eyes scripting won't be a problem for me ... after all, that's part of the "Stormlight" project ideally), so keep an eventual eye on the Open Source community. (I'm going to be ideally using SCCM for a project that I'm working on with friends of mine.) Well, the entire suite will be configured if we can get it going ... -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 8:19 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] the future of System Center Configuration Manager This blog post has been making the rounds on the SCCM lists and thought I’d share for the other blind people who use SCCM: http://blogs.technet.com/b/configmgrteam/archive/2015/10/27/system-center-co... This actually makes me kind of nervous, Microsoft’s accessibility history with this product hasn’t exactly been stellar. We use SCCM 2012R2 today, and thanks to some Window-Eyes scripts I can get around and all parts read, but its very very clunky and I wouldn’t call myself fast by any means. We recently upgraded to 2012R2 SP1 CU1, and that actually broke all the scripts and we had to rush to get them fixed. So I’m holding off on this upgrade for as long as I can. However, to be able to manage any OS beyond Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB (including the non LTSB builds of Windows 10) we’ll have to upgrade eventually. On top of that, assuming I can get new scripts written, if Microsoft can upgrade this guy whenever they want, those scripts may not be for much. I’m meeting with our TAM and some PMs on the SCCM team Friday to talk about my concerns, I have little hope of anything happening, Microsoft already said accessibility will not be a part of the next release, but hey. Just wanted to let any other blind admins know about this if they hadn’t seen the posts already. Ryan _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins