Hi, I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment. Wishing you all the best, Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place. To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer) 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc. 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience. Thanks Scott On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Good point. there are so many misrepresentations of us that it really sets a bad tone. I've only recently thought of composing a portfolio of my code and experiences to take with me. Maybe that will help. As you said, initiative is key. On 05/21/2014 1:40 PM, John Heim wrote:

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing. On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest. Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise. On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial. There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled. On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Andrew and any other UK people, re giving people an oppertunity to ask questions about your disibility, how do you handle this? I was under the impression that this was against the DDA and whilst this doesn't overly bother me, I always assumed employers wouldn't want to ask questions because of this? Cheers, Ben. On 5/21/14, Mika Pyyhkala <Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org> wrote:

We have had some good discussions about the state of the state, but I'm not sure what could be done about it? Other than to have a huge carot for companys that hire disabled people and a huge stick for those who don't.

Other than that it seems to just be luck.

I know both jobs I got out of college it was through knowing people. I also got an interview and a job offer at a large Boston financial institution and I got in the door there because my roommates mother was a vice president.

So they say knowing people, but it could be as simple as a friend or acquaintenance like a roommate or someone you meet on a train or plane.

Best, Mika

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:00 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments.

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Ben, we have similar laws in the US. Whereas an employer cannot ask about a disability per se, s/he can definitively ask about various work aspects, i.e., x y & z are essential job requirements. How will u perform these? This is a topic that's always keenly interested me, so I have some questions. For those of u having trouble finding work--have u ever made a career plan? What u do is: a) Figure out where u think u might wanna work, i.e., small, medium, large organization; for-profit, nonprofit, government, education, etc. b) Where do u wanna live? c) Fix very firmly in your mind the benefits you can give an employer. 1 of the coolest exercises (& 1 of the simplest) is to go back 5 years & pick the 5 accomplishments you're most proud of. What skills were needed to accomplish those goals? They don't even necessarily have to be work-related accomplishments. Did u use communication? Oral or written or both? What kind of organization was required? What machinery did u use to help u accomplish this? What other skills? Budgeting? Sales? Leadership? Teaching? d) W/a vision in hand of where you'd like to work, begin researching companies in your chosen area & pick those that seem to fit the profile you've made. Get as much information about them as possible--annual reports, news articles, etc. Follow their social media. Comment (intelligently, of course) on their blog, if possible. Follow them on FB, TW, & L I. Research some of the key players in the company, & follow their social media as well. The whole idea here is to get a good feel for the company, particularly its problems & how u might contribute to helping solve them. Speaking of social media, how's yours? Have you blogged about the employment areas that interest u & about the things you're doing regarding those? Have u posted to your social media platforms regarding those blog articles? &, o, yeah, btw, be careful what u post--those rowdy photos of a besotted Saturday night party just might come back to bite your bum. 2) When jobs are posted at the companies you're looking at, send a short resume (really--no more than 2 pages, & 1 is better). Instead of the rather bland "I was responsible for", start your resume bullet points w/verbs, i.e., supervised, implemented, etc. Make sure spelling & grammar are impecable. The resume should be on stationary, & u should have your letterhead on each 1. Also send a cover letter highlighting relevant areas of experience & telling how you could benefit the company. The stationary & letterhead apply here as well. 3) If you've gotten to know people at the company, & u feel the relationship is of sufficient quality & duration, let them know you're applying for a position. State that you've enjoyed the past interactions w/them, &, if they feel they could recommend u for this position, you'd be very grateful. 4) Study questions that are often asked in interviews, & construct answers based on the accomplishments above, or other relevant experience. For example, a question might be "what are your greatest strengths?" U could reply, "I'm a self-starter." But if you'd say, "I'm a self starter. During my summer job at X Y Z, I opened the fridg & it was so thick w/frost it was hard to put stuff in. I asked when it had been defrosted, & folks estimated it was about 9 months ago. I defrosted it on my lunch hour." That really illustrates your point in a believable way. It goes w/o saying u should be on time for the interview, dressed appropriately (it doesn't always mean suit & tie or skirt/slack suit--that would be appropriate for an office environment, but not necessarily a manufacturing plant, for example. A practice run of the trip is always a good idea. 5( At the conclusion of the interview, ask if they had any questions. Also ask if there was anything you might've done to make the interview better. 6) Write a thank-you letter on completion of the interview, re-summarizing how u could benefit the company. If u afterwords remembered something u wish you'd said, now's the time to include it. 7) If you haven't heard anything in a couple weeks, follow up w/a phone call. U should try to talk to 1 of the interviewers that have the power to make hiring decisions. 8) If, for some reason, u didn't get the job, i.e., they found some1 w/more experience, etc., ask if they might perhaps be willing to provide a recommendation for u to other companies. If u made a good impression, the answer just might be 'yes'. It also goes w/o saying that unusual mannerisms found at times in some congenitally blind persons, such as rocking, shaking of hands or head, etc., can be pretty off-putting. If that's a problem, then clearly, doing whatever is required to eliminate those behaviors would be a positive first step. It's an area not often discussed in the blindness community--actually from the lack of discussion it seems to me like it's almost taboo, so I'll probly once again get myself in trouble, but behaviors like those mentioned really do impact one's employment chances. Bear in mind now, I'm not talking about involuntary movements such as athetosis or spasticity found In cerebral palsy, for example, where the individual simply does not have the requisite voluntary muscle control. Additionally, good posture & looking at the person(s) during the interview process are also very helpful, even if true eye contact cannot be maintained. Have those of u who've gotten jobs tried any of these suggestions? Which ones? Were they helpful? Have u tried any in addition to these? What about those who've not been able to find employment? Which of these suggestions have u tried? Are there any u might consider in addition to those you've tried already? I'm not saying there's no discrimination out there. I know differently. I guess what I am saying, though, is something that we as techies don't like to acknowledge, & that is that hiring decisions are based on many factors, & technical prowess, even for a technical position, is often rather low on the list. What employers really wanna see is a person who can get along w/the other employees, someone who can communicate well, someone who demonstrates a willingness to learn, & who understands that, at the heart of the matter, to turn a phrase, "it's not what the company can do for you..." I'm also saying that, while it can be easy to blame external factors--&, yes, sometimes they are in fact really to blame--there are times when they actually arent. Blaming external factors such as blindness, etc., takes away the control from each of us & puts it in the hands of another. If we don't get the work, it's because of blindness or green hair or being fat or being thin or having 2 heads--whatever--& because it's outside of us, we then don't think about how we ourselves can change. Change is hard, but I personally think it's better than not having any control whatever. Does any1 else agree? Disagree? Again, don't get me wrong--I know of a certainty there are jobs we won't get because of discrimination against us. But I also believe that if we really work at this job hunting as though it really matters, switch our emphasis from "I need a job" to "I wanna make meaningful contributions", & put in the hard work it requires, we'll often come out ahead. Anyway, if this post gave those who were struggling some new ideas & perhaps provided some encouragement, then that'd make me happy, & it more than did its job. On 5/21/14, Ben Mustill-Rose <ben@benmr.com> wrote:

Andrew and any other UK people, re giving people an oppertunity to ask questions about your disibility, how do you handle this? I was under the impression that this was against the DDA and whilst this doesn't overly bother me, I always assumed employers wouldn't want to ask questions because of this?

Cheers, Ben.

On 5/21/14, Mika Pyyhkala <Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org> wrote:

...

We have had some good discussions about the state of the state, but I'm not sure what could be done about it? Other than to have a huge carot for companys that hire disabled people and a huge stick for those who don't.

Other than that it seems to just be luck.

I know both jobs I got out of college it was through knowing people. I also got an interview and a job offer at a large Boston financial institution and I got in the door there because my roommates mother was a vice president.

So they say knowing people, but it could be as simple as a friend or acquaintenance like a roommate or someone you meet on a train or plane.

Best, Mika

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:00 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

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---

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This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments.

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-- Jackie McBride Author of the Upcoming Book "Beyond Baffled: the Technophobe's Guide to Creating a Website" www.brighter-vision.com Where Visionaries & Technology Unite Jaws Scripting training www.screenreaderscripting.com

Hi, It's against the DDA for them to bring questions up during the interview questions. However, once the interview process has completed & they've got done asking you the same questions as everyone else it's fine. We can bring up the questions though which let's them know it's OK to ask. Honestly though I've not got anywhere neart he 20yrs experience that the likes of Scott has but I still say that if you can win them over in this time then you'r ebetter off not working either there or at least for that person because it's going to be a nightmare. Barry. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ben Mustill-Rose Sent: 22 May 2014 02:20 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Andrew and any other UK people, re giving people an oppertunity to ask questions about your disibility, how do you handle this? I was under the impression that this was against the DDA and whilst this doesn't overly bother me, I always assumed employers wouldn't want to ask questions because of this? Cheers, Ben. On 5/21/14, Mika Pyyhkala <Mika_Pyyhkala@nhp.org> wrote:

We have had some good discussions about the state of the state, but I'm not sure what could be done about it? Other than to have a huge carot for companys that hire disabled people and a huge stick for those who don't.

Other than that it seems to just be luck.

I know both jobs I got out of college it was through knowing people. I also got an interview and a job offer at a large Boston financial institution and I got in the door there because my roommates mother was a vice president.

So they say knowing people, but it could be as simple as a friend or acquaintenance like a roommate or someone you meet on a train or plane.

Best, Mika

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:00 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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This message contains information from Neighborhood Health Plan that may be confidential or privileged. This message is directed only to the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments.

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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So if my name is Leroy Jones, I way 300 lbs and thick glasses I’m really screwed? :) On May 21, 2014, at 5:00 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

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Being serious but here I was thinking that the hot women had the upper hand. Seriously! In a previous job I worked in a network planning and delivery group. When ever we went over budget we had the smokin hot Mexican girl hit up the finance team for more money. (Always worked) Now granted she was extremely qualified, definitely in the top end of the intelligence scale and a superior worker but she had the benefit of the looks to go with it. (some have all the luck) So I guess we capitalized on the thing you’re pointing out. I also can back up your point by saying at one point I lost over 100 LBS and things really did seem to be easier. I guess it’s thought of as some sort of discipline / sign of self control or something. There are so many aspects of life this is true though not just professional. I have a driver who is middle eastern so has brown skin and looks Mexican. Unless I’m with him he’s always getting pulled over for driving while brown. California was so bad I installed a camera system in the car so he could have evidence when going to court. Had over 14 tickets thrown out and 2 officers fired during that time. (east coast is much much more easier going) I guess the lesson we learn here that we all know to well is you play the cards you’re dealt and the goal is to maximize your hand. (no matter whether it’s professionally, personally and or in-between) On May 22, 2014, at 11:31 AM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Well, yeah. Reality bites.

It's just a sad fact of life. Tall, thin, white males have an easier time finding jobs than those who don't fit those characteristics. This is true independent of other factors like education, experience, etc. There are dozens of studies that confirm this. In fact, there are studies that show that even African-Americans are more likely to hire a white guy than a black guy. Weird, I know, but that's the human race for you.

On 05/22/14 09:16, Scott Granados wrote:

...

So if my name is Leroy Jones, I way 300 lbs and thick glasses I’m really screwed?

:)

On May 21, 2014, at 5:00 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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Appearance does matter. I'm not saying that you have to be a physically 'beautiful' person. But if you desire to enable others to become more comfortable with the fact that you are different from them, then you, no matter how much you might dislike conformance, need to present yourself accordingly. Yes, I've already said these things but I have met blind or legally blind persons who expect others to accept their inappropriate dress and/or habbits. As for addressing those issues a manager may have with how they perceive a person who is blind or legally blind, I do often tell them that it is ok with me if they want to ask me more specific questions. This hass always been an ice-breaker and has resulted in positive dialogue. I've taken tests which were presented verbally. The issue of interfacing a screen reader with an application or site does pose some challenges. Most corporate environments do support Microsoft Office 2010 or higher and they could download Window-Eyes for Office which may not be what you'd prefer but it's a possible solution. NVDA being open source might not be a fit because most corporate environments will not allow open source applicaitions to be installed. Also if the test requires less than 30-40 minutes, they can obtain and install a demonstration copy of JAWS or Window-Eyes. Bringing in your own laptop probably won't suffice unless there is public access and that is generally restricted from access to network drives and the like. If a potential employer is truly interested in your qualifications, they will make an attempt to accomodate you for necessary pre-employment testing of skills and/or other screening. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:52 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Being serious but here I was thinking that the hot women had the upper hand. Seriously! In a previous job I worked in a network planning and delivery group. When ever we went over budget we had the smokin hot Mexican girl hit up the finance team for more money. (Always worked) Now granted she was extremely qualified, definitely in the top end of the intelligence scale and a superior worker but she had the benefit of the looks to go with it. (some have all the luck) So I guess we capitalized on the thing you're pointing out. I also can back up your point by saying at one point I lost over 100 LBS and things really did seem to be easier. I guess it's thought of as some sort of discipline / sign of self control or something. There are so many aspects of life this is true though not just professional. I have a driver who is middle eastern so has brown skin and looks Mexican. Unless I'm with him he's always getting pulled over for driving while brown. California was so bad I installed a camera system in the car so he could have evidence when going to court. Had over 14 tickets thrown out and 2 officers fired during that time. (east coast is much much more easier going) I guess the lesson we learn here that we all know to well is you play the cards you're dealt and the goal is to maximize your hand. (no matter whether it's professionally, personally and or in-between) On May 22, 2014, at 11:31 AM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Well, yeah. Reality bites.

It's just a sad fact of life. Tall, thin, white males have an easier time finding jobs than those who don't fit those characteristics. This is true independent of other factors like education, experience, etc. There are dozens of studies that confirm this. In fact, there are studies that show that even African-Americans are more likely to hire a white guy than a black guy. Weird, I know, but that's the human race for you.

On 05/22/14 09:16, Scott Granados wrote:

...

So if my name is Leroy Jones, I way 300 lbs and thick glasses I'm really screwed?

:)

On May 21, 2014, at 5:00 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Well, sure, an employer's main concern is whether you can do the job. But there are a lot of misconceptions on what a blind person can and cannot do. Some percentage of employers are going to assume, incorrectly, that a blind person can't manage a help desk, for example. It's impossible to say what percentage of employers that is but from what I've heard on this list and others, the percentage is substantial.

There have been studies that have shown that even something as innocent as having an African-American first name on your resume makes it less likely for you to be called for an interview. Other studies have shown that being over weight makes it far more difficult to get a job. So Being blind has to have some effect. Even something as simple as establishing a rapore with the interviewer is going to be harder for a blind person because it is harder to make eye contact and some people are just uncomfortable around the disabled.

On 05/21/14 15:07, Lee, Amanda wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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I struggle with the issue of to disclose or not to disclose. I understand that the questions must be the same. However where I struggle is if I walk into an interview with my guide dog or mobility cane or if I use a wheelchair and no one on the panel asks questions about what I might require, then there might be cause for concern. Of course we shouldn't talk about what I use as my mobility aid at the beginning, because the interview shouldn't be about my disability. If people on the panel at the end ask leading questions like what will your guide dog need during the day or I see you are using a wheelchair did you want to see the photocopy area to let us know if we need to move anything about, demonstrates a high degree of acceptance. Then again there is a responsibility on my part to mention that I might require some adaptive software or ask if it is OK for me to put some Braille labels on some of the equipment I am required to administer. I will apologise now if my example of using a wheelchair is a bit off the mark; I don't use one, however I do use a guide dog. I have been fortunate in that a lot of the time I have been working by myself. This has forced me to be creative when working with hardware. For example when I need to put equipment on racks, I use packing material to support the server, router, UPS etc. This allows me to line up the holes used to secure the device to the rack. And with the softer chunks of packing material, I can push down to move the holes so they line up correctly. A few months back I had the luxury of going to a site to remove and install equipment with another person. We never worked together and we had to remove and put in new UPS devices. We talked about our working environments and he asked what it is like working by myself for the most part. I told him about having to become creative in solving some challenges. Then I showed him how much easier it is to install a UPS by removing the batteries first then putting them in once the chassis is secured to the rack. Up until then he always worked with two other people and he always had the good fortune of having two people hold the device while the third connected the bolts. In a few months I am moving to a new location working with a new group. I am looking forward to being part of a larger team again and having colleagues at the same location as me. I miss the day to day banter and bouncing ideas off of one another. Vic Pereira Shared Services Canada/Integrated Network Services | Services partagés Canada/Services Intégrés de Réseau 400-400 St. Mary Avenue Winnipeg MB R3C 4K5 vic.pereira@ssc-spc.gc.ca 204-983-0653 Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

I struggle with the issue of to disclose or not to disclose. I understand that the questions must be the same. However where I struggle is if I walk into an interview with my guide dog or mobility cane or if I use a wheelchair and no one on the panel asks questions about what I might require, then there might be cause for concern. Of course we shouldn't talk about what I use as my mobility aid at the beginning, because the interview shouldn't be about my disability. If people on the panel at the end ask leading questions like what will your guide dog need during the day or I see you are using a wheelchair did you want to see the photocopy area to let us know if we need to move anything about, demonstrates a high degree of acceptance. Then again there is a responsibility on my part to mention that I might require some adaptive software or ask if it is OK for me to put some Braille labels on some of the equipment I am required to administer. I will apologise now if my example of using a wheelchair is a bit off the mark; I don't use one, however I do use a guide dog. I have been fortunate in that a lot of the time I have been working by myself. This has forced me to be creative when working with hardware. For example when I need to put equipment on racks, I use packing material to support the server, router, UPS etc. This allows me to line up the holes used to secure the device to the rack. And with the softer chunks of packing material, I can push down to move the holes so they line up correctly. A few months back I had the luxury of going to a site to remove and install equipment with another person. We never worked together and we had to remove and put in new UPS devices. We talked about our working environments and he asked what it is like working by myself for the most part. I told him about having to become creative in solving some challenges. Then I showed him how much easier it is to install a UPS by removing the batteries first then putting them in once the chassis is secured to the rack. Up until then he always worked with two other people and he always had the good fortune of having two people hold the device while the third connected the bolts. In a few months I am moving to a new location working with a new group. I am looking forward to being part of a larger team again and having colleagues at the same location as me. I miss the day to day banter and bouncing ideas off of one another. Vic Pereira Shared Services Canada/Integrated Network Services | Services partagés Canada/Services Intégrés de Réseau 400-400 St. Mary Avenue Winnipeg MB R3C 4K5 vic.pereira@ssc-spc.gc.ca 204-983-0653 Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

Perhaps this bit might prove interesting: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/zoli-kahan-teenager-dropout-silicon-vall... On 5/22/14, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Right but I've been trying to make it clear that I am primarily addressing those of us who's resumes may be a little less impressive than yours would have been. Right now, just about anywhere in the country, there are probably going to be dozens of applicants for every entry level job in IT. That's a huge problem if besides not having a great deal of experience, you are also blind. I have little doubt that it's possible for even a blind person to get the first job they apply for straight out of tech school. But I think the real question is what to tell people who simply haven't been that lucky. You can't say, well, go out and get 10 years of experience running an ISP and then start sending out resumes. It's not even realistic to tell most people to go back to school and get a BS in Comp Sci.

What we are trying to figure out is what to tell someone who says I have an associate degree in networking and official Microsoft certification is whatever (sorry, I know nothing about Microsoft certifications). I've sent out 137 resumes, gone to 26 interviews, and haven't had any luck? The last interview I was at, the interviewer showed me a stack of resumes 2 inches thick and asked me why he should hire me instead of any of the other 93 applicants. Any advice?

Unsaid in the above paragraph is the reality that not only do you have to make your resume stand out above the other 92, you have to make it stand out enough so that the IT manager will overlook his reservations about hiring a blind person. For some managers, that will be easy. For others, not so much.

My answer is two fold: 1. Understand that getting that job is in large part simply a matter of luck. Do everything you can to improve your chances. If you can go back to school, do it. Get whatever certifications you can. Broaden your experience by studying the latest and greatest technology on your own time. And, above all, keep trying. 2. Turn your blindness into a asset as much as you can. Employers love initiative. They love "go getters". Show them that that is who you are. I am going to say that there doesn't exist a blind person in IT who isn't a go getter. Some more than others but all of us are probably above average. Play that up.

...

I have to say my experience most closely matches yours. John brings up very good points but my experiences haven't been nearly as difficult as others seem to have had. At one point during the dot com bubble in 2000 I sent out 4 resumes to companies and ended up getting 11 offers.:) Things were so tight then that people were poaching resumes from anywhere they could find them. One point that you made in a previous message that's important is be presentable. I'm sure everyone on this list knows this but it's hugely important. Have a sited person make sure that everything matches, no dirt on the clothing (or food on the shirt, that's my tricky one lol). Know the market you're going for, if you're meeting with engineers and propeller heads then don't wear a suit, if you're meeting with Wall Street bankers then throw on the Brooks Brothers suit and go for it. Obvious I know but worth repeating. . On May 21, 2014, at 4:07 PM, Lee, Amanda <alee@nib.org> wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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-- Jackie McBride Author of the Upcoming Book "Beyond Baffled: the Technophobe's Guide to Creating a Website" www.brighter-vision.com Where Visionaries & Technology Unite Jaws Scripting training www.screenreaderscripting.com

John, I really like your option 2. I know I’ve tried to minimize the effect of my blindness when dealing with interviewers and tend to word it like “we do the same things with the same results it’s just how we get there is a little different”. Or something like that. Meaning I might use a screen reader, or count the steps to the bathroom, or yada yada yada but the end result is what you’re looking for. Some others were asking in parallel to this how do you illustrate that you can put ends on cables or run wiring etc. My answer to that is maybe don’t do that kind of job. My rolls have been more classical engineering where we write procedures and execute plans and have mostly Unionized cable workers do the physical portion of the work. That’s how things are done many times in large telephone companies, sited or otherwise. Unions won’t let non union engineers touch physical plant and so forth. I do like your turning blindness in to a positive method though. The next time I interview I might try to do that more. That sounds pretty effective. On May 22, 2014, at 11:24 AM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Right but I've been trying to make it clear that I am primarily addressing those of us who's resumes may be a little less impressive than yours would have been. Right now, just about anywhere in the country, there are probably going to be dozens of applicants for every entry level job in IT. That's a huge problem if besides not having a great deal of experience, you are also blind. I have little doubt that it's possible for even a blind person to get the first job they apply for straight out of tech school. But I think the real question is what to tell people who simply haven't been that lucky. You can't say, well, go out and get 10 years of experience running an ISP and then start sending out resumes. It's not even realistic to tell most people to go back to school and get a BS in Comp Sci.

What we are trying to figure out is what to tell someone who says I have an associate degree in networking and official Microsoft certification is whatever (sorry, I know nothing about Microsoft certifications). I've sent out 137 resumes, gone to 26 interviews, and haven't had any luck? The last interview I was at, the interviewer showed me a stack of resumes 2 inches thick and asked me why he should hire me instead of any of the other 93 applicants. Any advice?

Unsaid in the above paragraph is the reality that not only do you have to make your resume stand out above the other 92, you have to make it stand out enough so that the IT manager will overlook his reservations about hiring a blind person. For some managers, that will be easy. For others, not so much.

My answer is two fold: 1. Understand that getting that job is in large part simply a matter of luck. Do everything you can to improve your chances. If you can go back to school, do it. Get whatever certifications you can. Broaden your experience by studying the latest and greatest technology on your own time. And, above all, keep trying. 2. Turn your blindness into a asset as much as you can. Employers love initiative. They love "go getters". Show them that that is who you are. I am going to say that there doesn't exist a blind person in IT who isn't a go getter. Some more than others but all of us are probably above average. Play that up.

...

I have to say my experience most closely matches yours. John brings up very good points but my experiences haven’t been nearly as difficult as others seem to have had. At one point during the dot com bubble in 2000 I sent out 4 resumes to companies and ended up getting 11 offers.:) Things were so tight then that people were poaching resumes from anywhere they could find them. One point that you made in a previous message that’s important is be presentable. I’m sure everyone on this list knows this but it’s hugely important. Have a sited person make sure that everything matches, no dirt on the clothing (or food on the shirt, that’s my tricky one lol). Know the market you’re going for, if you’re meeting with engineers and propeller heads then don’t wear a suit, if you’re meeting with Wall Street bankers then throw on the Brooks Brothers suit and go for it. Obvious I know but worth repeating. . On May 21, 2014, at 4:07 PM, Lee, Amanda <alee@nib.org> wrote:

...

I have never disclosed that I was blind prior to an interview. I've even walked in off the street to a job fair held by a company seeking professionals and became employed by that company. Rarely wil you be rejected. As I said, their main concern is can you perform and can you do the job.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:40 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

I suspect you can get more interviews by not disclosing that you are blind but I'm not sure that's a good thing. I went to an interview once and when the woman who was going to interview me saw that I was blind, she at first refused to go ahead with the interview. I talked her into it but it was clear from the start that I had no chance. It was just a big waste of time. I was glad I had taken the bus to the interview because if I had taken a cab, it would have been money thrown away for nothing.

On the other hand, getting hired is just so much BS. It's so much a random process. I worked for a company where the manager threw away any resume that wasn't printed with black ink on white paper. Send him a cream colored resume and it went immediately into the trash. But a manager will over look almost anything if they just like you enough. Maybe that works in favor of not disclosing that you are blind. Maybe you get that one interview and just happen to hit it off with the person doing the hiring. But I think you need to get them thinking of hiring a blind person in advance. Pique their interest.

Employers love initiative. I think the stuff we blind people do every day, like crossing streets, seems like a remarkable demonstration of initiative to your typical sighted person. My opinion is that you should play that stuff up. Not only is it fair, it's true. I think mostblind people have no idea how often sighted people slide by in life. They don't care about their jobs and they are not particularly good at them. But they show up every day and they get paid. It almost never works out like that for blind people. The truth is that the people on this list do have more guts and more initiative than the average worker. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

On 05/21/14 11:59, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

...

Hi,

I agree with you on point 1 and 2, however, I haven't really managed to successfully complete an interview solely on my own merit, as I knew people before coming into this current job, and haven't been able to find anything since. I always used to make a point of telling people about my visual impairment in a letter before as part of the application process, but found I got more interviews when I didn't do this. I also give people the opportunity to ask questions about my impairment.

Wishing you all the best, Andrew.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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I've noticed that some employers incorporate tests as part of their interviews. They could take the form of modifying existing code, writing sql queries against an existing database, or diagnosing problems given a test system. Often due to security policies or particular configurations it is not possible to just install a screen reader, and your demonstration laptop can not be connected to the employer's network. Assume that security policies are strictly enforced. I've advocated for postponing disclosure until the day of the interview, but in situations such as those that I've described, doing so leaves you in a tough spot. I'd appreciate any comments on how others have dealt with this issue. On Wed, May 21, 2014 11:56 am, Scott Granados wrote:

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I've contemplated getting a cheap USB 3G or similar modem for situations like that. I've never really had the need though. I actually did have to take a test at one staffing agency, but they were willing to install a screen reader. I have offered to come back at their convenience to take tests or demonstrate my work when their set-up could be configured to accommodate my need for voice output. It seems like such an inconvenience to them though. I guess they often don't want to bother. On 05/21/2014 12:10 PM, Chris Nestrud wrote:

I've noticed that some employers incorporate tests as part of their interviews. They could take the form of modifying existing code, writing sql queries against an existing database, or diagnosing problems given a test system. Often due to security policies or particular configurations it is not possible to just install a screen reader, and your demonstration laptop can not be connected to the employer's network. Assume that security policies are strictly enforced. I've advocated for postponing disclosure until the day of the interview, but in situations such as those that I've described, doing so leaves you in a tough spot. I'd appreciate any comments on how others have dealt with this issue.

On Wed, May 21, 2014 11:56 am, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread. But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset. On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts. I am a mid level programmer with about 5 years of professional programming experience. Even so, I find it pretty difficult to get someone to step out on a limb and give me a chance. My first job was doing support for a VOIP company, so I am familiar with a lot of the routers and network equipment. I would love to work exclusively with Linux machines, but JAWS is such a mature product. It's kind of a shock trying to use Orca or VoiceOver. VoiceOver is close though. On 05/21/2014 2:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

You have some good points. The wowing them with your skills is hard to do when you’re new. It’s easy for me now with 20 years under my belt for example and technical issues are easy to deal with during discussions but if you’re more green you don’t have that advantage. That’s probably the most difficult thing is to how you get your start. I’ll admit, I bought my way in. I started an ISP and was lucky enough to receive angel funding to get off the ground. I am certain most can’t do that or won’t have the means to do something like that. For me by the time I sold the company I had learned and experienced what I needed to for my next step in career. If I had to start cold though and work my way up I’m not sure that I would find folks willing to give me a shot. That’s a big part of the problem.

As for the actual accessibility of parts of the process, that’s one reason I went for network engineering. Booting a Cisco or Juniper MX really requires only a terminal program and serial cable. It’s old old technology. I know John can speak to examples of where this is changing and not in our favor but for me this worked out pretty well. Same with Unix, I’ve always found Unix to be workable with SSH. I’m amazed by the folks on this list who work in the windows domain. It seems to me that would be a more difficult challenge. I guess it all depends on what you’re interested in as well.

On May 21, 2014, at 2:59 PM, John Heim<jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

If you have Office 2010 or 2013, you can download Window-Eyes for free. Window-Eyes has excellent Office support and does not become sluggish over a network when accessing large spreadsheets or Word documents, etc. The url is: www.WindowEyesForOffice.com There is a keyboard layout for JAWS so you can continue to use the keyboard commands that you are comfortable with. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Jad Wauthier Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:26 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts. I am a mid level programmer with about 5 years of professional programming experience. Even so, I find it pretty difficult to get someone to step out on a limb and give me a chance. My first job was doing support for a VOIP company, so I am familiar with a lot of the routers and network equipment. I would love to work exclusively with Linux machines, but JAWS is such a mature product. It's kind of a shock trying to use Orca or VoiceOver. VoiceOver is close though. On 05/21/2014 2:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

You have some good points. The wowing them with your skills is hard to do when you’re new. It’s easy for me now with 20 years under my belt for example and technical issues are easy to deal with during discussions but if you’re more green you don’t have that advantage. That’s probably the most difficult thing is to how you get your start. I’ll admit, I bought my way in. I started an ISP and was lucky enough to receive angel funding to get off the ground. I am certain most can’t do that or won’t have the means to do something like that. For me by the time I sold the company I had learned and experienced what I needed to for my next step in career. If I had to start cold though and work my way up I’m not sure that I would find folks willing to give me a shot. That’s a big part of the problem.

As for the actual accessibility of parts of the process, that’s one reason I went for network engineering. Booting a Cisco or Juniper MX really requires only a terminal program and serial cable. It’s old old technology. I know John can speak to examples of where this is changing and not in our favor but for me this worked out pretty well. Same with Unix, I’ve always found Unix to be workable with SSH. I’m amazed by the folks on this list who work in the windows domain. It seems to me that would be a more difficult challenge. I guess it all depends on what you’re interested in as well.

On May 21, 2014, at 2:59 PM, John Heim<jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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---

Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight. That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something. On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight. That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something. On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Amanda, no IT manager is going to disqualify a candidate because they include a link to a video of themselves putting a computer together. They might ignore the link but they're not going to discard a resume because of that. On the other hand, don't you think there are managers out there who would assume a blind person can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it themselves if they were blind? Don't you believe there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what blind people can and cannot do? You may not be able to dispell those misconceptions but you may be able to turn them to your advantage. Somebody sees a video of you putting a hard drive into a PC and they think you are Geordi Laforge or that character Whistler from the movie "Sneakers". And even if they don't go that far, at worst you have shown some initiative and dispelled that one misconception. What I'm suggesting isn't that extraordinary. You want to convince your employer that where there is a will, there's a way (as someone else put it in this thread). I am saying you'd start off ahead if you've already demonstrated that you don't let anything stop you in your personal life. On 05/22/14 11:23, Lee, Amanda wrote:

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight.

That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something.

On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

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hahaha I can do that. I'm one of those perfect pitch freaks, and I mean freak in that extra sense since I was in my teens as the analog phone switches were being phased out. *grin* It was neat using one pay phone to call the pay phone next to it, but having that call go back and forth across the Atlantic, so you'd hear your voice come back a quarter second later, sounding distant. I never pushed my luck though, and never did that sort of thing from home. Two friends of mine did and ended up in court. The only thing that kept both of them out of a detention facility was pitty from the judge because, oh gosh, a short overweight blind kid wouldn't do too well inside. At 01:45 PM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

Alright now, everyone whistle 2600 hz!

;)

On May 22, 2014, at 1:38 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Amanda, no IT manager is going to disqualify a candidate because they include a link to a video of themselves putting a computer together. They might ignore the link but they're not going to discard a resume because of that. On the other hand, don't you think there are managers out there who would assume a blind person can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it themselves if they were blind?

Don't you believe there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what blind people can and cannot do? You may not be able to dispell those misconceptions but you may be able to turn them to your advantage. Somebody sees a video of you putting a hard drive into a PC and they think you are Geordi Laforge or that character Whistler from the movie "Sneakers". And even if they don't go that far, at worst you have shown some initiative and dispelled that one misconception. What I'm suggesting isn't that extraordinary. You want to convince your employer that where there is a will, there's a way (as someone else put it in this thread). I am saying you'd start off ahead if you've already demonstrated that you don't let anything stop you in your personal life.

...

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain

On 05/22/14 11:23, Lee, Amanda wrote: that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for.

...

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins

[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim

...

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight.

That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something.

On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote:

...

Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread.

But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset.

On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote: > Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been > discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even > groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work > place. > > To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's > what my experience has been and what has worked for me. > 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview > process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone > figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume > stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some > cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my > situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the > situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the > issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience > with. (they know their customer) > > 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a > chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since > I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. > I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases > concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a > screen reader and how it helps you work etc. > > 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. > I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that > geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New > England might be tending towards more integration than say > Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization > though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I > will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this > process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients > tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the > list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find > though that searching for work in places where there are a > concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if > that helps at all but that's been my experience. > > Thanks > Scott > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this >> list. >> Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing >> lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and >> employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have >> always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my >> ability to demonstrate my skill sets. >> >> Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are: >> >> 1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. >> How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech >> companies that are comfortable working with people with a >> different approach to interfacing with their technologies >> >> I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm >> really looking for various view points and possibly something that >> might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many >> close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. >> You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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That's impressive. On 5/22/2014 2:00 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

No I agree, a short over weight blind kid would have probably been passed around prison like a loose joint.:)

That being said though, we used to have a place called the Rock and Roll truck stop. The nice thing was you had the unlimited coffee and breakfast special, each table had a pay phone and power outlet and you could build your boxes, drink coffee and test them all at the same time. We used to dial around the world from one phone to another. One day we showed up and there were guys in suits with wingtips sitting there trying not to look like federal agents. allegedly we ran up 67,000 dollars worth of charges on the pay phone.

On May 22, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Chris Smart <csmart8@cogeco.ca> wrote:

...

hahaha I can do that. I'm one of those perfect pitch freaks, and I mean freak in that extra sense since I was in my teens as the analog phone switches were being phased out. *grin* It was neat using one pay phone to call the pay phone next to it, but having that call go back and forth across the Atlantic, so you'd hear your voice come back a quarter second later, sounding distant.

I never pushed my luck though, and never did that sort of thing from home. Two friends of mine did and ended up in court. The only thing that kept both of them out of a detention facility was pitty from the judge because, oh gosh, a short overweight blind kid wouldn't do too well inside.

At 01:45 PM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

...

Alright now, everyone whistle 2600 hz!

;)

On May 22, 2014, at 1:38 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Amanda, no IT manager is going to disqualify a candidate because they include a link to a video of themselves putting a computer together. They might ignore the link but they're not going to discard a resume because of that. On the other hand, don't you think there are managers out there who would assume a blind person can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it themselves if they were blind?

Don't you believe there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what blind people can and cannot do? You may not be able to dispell those misconceptions but you may be able to turn them to your advantage. Somebody sees a video of you putting a hard drive into a PC and they think you are Geordi Laforge or that character Whistler from the movie "Sneakers". And even if they don't go that far, at worst you have shown some initiative and dispelled that one misconception. What I'm suggesting isn't that extraordinary. You want to convince your employer that where there is a will, there's a way (as someone else put it in this thread). I am saying you'd start off ahead if you've already demonstrated that you don't let anything stop you in your personal life.

...

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain

On 05/22/14 11:23, Lee, Amanda wrote: that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for.

...

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins

[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim

...

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight. That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something.

On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote: > Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can > perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all > my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the > cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard > usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never > figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a > CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this > stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to > be done, in part, by feel. > There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. > We can talk about that in another thread. > > But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to > get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer > that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that > is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your > disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is > to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your > disability. Turn it into an asset. > > > On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote: >> Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is >> much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually >> have really good interviews, but I still find that people are >> hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a >> lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I >> disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a >> problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. >> However, as technology grows and the markets become more >> competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies >> who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to >> want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen >> readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle >> it when part of the job is hardware >> repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the >> OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS >> installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, >> BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a >> will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read >> things out to you? >> >> On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote: >>> Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been >>> discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even >>> groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work >>> place. >>> >>> To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's >>> what my experience has been and what has worked for me. >>> 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview >>> process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone >>> figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume >>> stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some >>> cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my >>> situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the >>> situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the >>> issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience >>> with. (they know their customer) >>> >>> 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a >>> chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since >>> I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. >>> I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases >>> concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a >>> screen reader and how it helps you work etc. >>> >>> 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. >>> I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that >>> geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New >>> England might be tending towards more integration than say >>> Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization >>> though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I >>> will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this >>> process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients >>> tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the >>> list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find >>> though that searching for work in places where there are a >>> concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if >>> that helps at all but that's been my experience. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this >>>> list. >>>> Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing >>>> lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and >>>> employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have >>>> always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my >>>> ability to demonstrate my skill sets. >>>> >>>> Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are: >>>> >>>> 1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. >>>> How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech >>>> companies that are comfortable working with people with a >>>> different approach to interfacing with their technologies >>>> >>>> I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm >>>> really looking for various view points and possibly something that >>>> might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many >>>> close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. >>>> You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Jad >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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LOL hilarious! And they were probably thinking "wow, blind kids are doing this?" I read a great article about the history of all of that, the original guy known as Whistler etc. At 03:00 PM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

No I agree, a short over weight blind kid would have probably been passed around prison like a loose joint.:)

That being said though, we used to have a place called the Rock and Roll truck stop. The nice thing was you had the unlimited coffee and breakfast special, each table had a pay phone and power outlet and you could build your boxes, drink coffee and test them all at the same time. We used to dial around the world from one phone to another. One day we showed up and there were guys in suits with wingtips sitting there trying not to look like federal agents. allegedly we ran up 67,000 dollars worth of charges on the pay phone.

On May 22, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Chris Smart <csmart8@cogeco.ca> wrote:

...

hahaha I can do that. I'm one of those perfect pitch freaks, and I mean freak in that extra sense since I was in my teens as the analog phone switches were being phased out. *grin* It was neat using one pay phone to call the pay phone next to it, but having that call go back and forth across the Atlantic, so you'd hear your voice come back a quarter second later, sounding distant.

I never pushed my luck though, and never did that sort of thing from home. Two friends of mine did and ended up in court. The only thing that kept both of them out of a detention facility was pitty from the judge because, oh gosh, a short overweight blind kid wouldn't do too well inside.

At 01:45 PM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

...

Alright now, everyone whistle 2600 hz!

;)

On May 22, 2014, at 1:38 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Amanda, no IT manager is going to disqualify a candidate because they include a link to a video of themselves putting a computer together. They might ignore the link but they're not going to discard a resume because of that. On the other hand, don't you think there are managers out there who would assume a blind person can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it themselves if they were blind?

Don't you believe there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what blind people can and cannot do? You may not be able to dispell those misconceptions but you may be able to turn them to your advantage. Somebody sees a video of you putting a hard drive into a PC and they think you are Geordi Laforge or that character Whistler from the movie "Sneakers". And even if they don't go that far, at worst you have shown some initiative and dispelled that one misconception. What I'm suggesting isn't that extraordinary. You want to convince your employer that where there is a will, there's a way (as someone else put it in this thread). I am saying you'd start off ahead if you've already demonstrated that you don't let anything stop you in your personal life.

...

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain

On 05/22/14 11:23, Lee, Amanda wrote: that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for.

...

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins

[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim

...

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight.

That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something.

On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote: > Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can > perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all > my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the > cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard > usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never > figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a > CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this > stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to > be done, in part, by feel. > There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. > We can talk about that in another thread. > > But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to > get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer > that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that > is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your > disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is > to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your > disability. Turn it into an asset. > > > On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote: >> Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is >> much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually >> have really good interviews, but I still find that people are >> hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a >> lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I >> disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a >> problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. >> However, as technology grows and the markets become more >> competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies >> who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to >> want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen >> readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle >> it when part of the job is hardware >> repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the >> OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS >> installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, >> BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a >> will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read >> things out to you? >> >> On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote: >>> Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been >>> discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even >>> groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work >>> place. >>> >>> To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's >>> what my experience has been and what has worked for me. >>> 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview >>> process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone >>> figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume >>> stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some >>> cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my >>> situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the >>> situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the >>> issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience >>> with. (they know their customer) >>> >>> 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a >>> chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since >>> I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. >>> I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases >>> concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a >>> screen reader and how it helps you work etc. >>> >>> 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. >>> I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that >>> geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New >>> England might be tending towards more integration than say >>> Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization >>> though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I >>> will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this >>> process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients >>> tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the >>> list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find >>> though that searching for work in places where there are a >>> concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if >>> that helps at all but that's been my experience. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this >>>> list. >>>> Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing >>>> lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and >>>> employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have >>>> always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my >>>> ability to demonstrate my skill sets. >>>> >>>> Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are: >>>> >>>> 1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. >>>> How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech >>>> companies that are comfortable working with people with a >>>> different approach to interfacing with their technologies >>>> >>>> I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm >>>> really looking for various view points and possibly something that >>>> might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many >>>> close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. >>>> You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Jad >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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Anyone interested in reading more on this point about success being so much out of our control should read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book, "Outliers". To be clear, that book is about both how success is totally under our control and how it is not. It's just that both are true but in ways most people don't realize. I like that book because it gave me ammunition for points I've been arguing for years with friends and on other lists. Anybody who has hung around me for any length of time knows that one thing I cannot tolerate is the way so many people think their successesare all because they did everything right and their failures are because things were aligned against them. Meanwhile, everyone else's failures are their own fault. I've actually seen people post messages saying that if you're on disability you are just lazy and then it turns out they themselves are on disability. But see, *they* can't help it. "You don't understand, I have all these problems. It's not my fault." It comes up most often on lists for the blind when someone tells a story about being discriminated against. You'll almost always get blasted for that. "Well, I'd have handled it differently." As if it's the person's own fault for having been discriminated against. Of course, the people saying they'd have handled it differently/better have their own stories of being discriminated against -- but there was nothing they could have done to avoid that. Drives me crazy. On 05/22/14 14:00, Scott Granados wrote:

No I agree, a short over weight blind kid would have probably been passed around prison like a loose joint.:)

That being said though, we used to have a place called the Rock and Roll truck stop. The nice thing was you had the unlimited coffee and breakfast special, each table had a pay phone and power outlet and you could build your boxes, drink coffee and test them all at the same time. We used to dial around the world from one phone to another. One day we showed up and there were guys in suits with wingtips sitting there trying not to look like federal agents. allegedly we ran up 67,000 dollars worth of charges on the pay phone.

On May 22, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Chris Smart <csmart8@cogeco.ca> wrote:

...

hahaha I can do that. I'm one of those perfect pitch freaks, and I mean freak in that extra sense since I was in my teens as the analog phone switches were being phased out. *grin* It was neat using one pay phone to call the pay phone next to it, but having that call go back and forth across the Atlantic, so you'd hear your voice come back a quarter second later, sounding distant.

I never pushed my luck though, and never did that sort of thing from home. Two friends of mine did and ended up in court. The only thing that kept both of them out of a detention facility was pitty from the judge because, oh gosh, a short overweight blind kid wouldn't do too well inside.

At 01:45 PM 5/22/2014, you wrote:

...

Alright now, everyone whistle 2600 hz!

;)

On May 22, 2014, at 1:38 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Amanda, no IT manager is going to disqualify a candidate because they include a link to a video of themselves putting a computer together. They might ignore the link but they're not going to discard a resume because of that. On the other hand, don't you think there are managers out there who would assume a blind person can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it themselves if they were blind?

Don't you believe there are a lot of misconceptions out there about what blind people can and cannot do? You may not be able to dispell those misconceptions but you may be able to turn them to your advantage. Somebody sees a video of you putting a hard drive into a PC and they think you are Geordi Laforge or that character Whistler from the movie "Sneakers". And even if they don't go that far, at worst you have shown some initiative and dispelled that one misconception. What I'm suggesting isn't that extraordinary. You want to convince your employer that where there is a will, there's a way (as someone else put it in this thread). I am saying you'd start off ahead if you've already demonstrated that you don't let anything stop you in your personal life.

...

If a manager truly wants to know, he or she will engage you and ask you questions about how you do thus and such. I'm not certain

On 05/22/14 11:23, Lee, Amanda wrote: that sending them links to videos will prove anything except that you or someone can produce a video for you. You know, acting is acting and doing is performing. If they ask you for an example of your work, then ask them if a video would suffice but a video out on social media somewhere personally gives me an uncomfortable feeling as here you are forcing a manager to use social media to learn about you. Just my two cents worth. I have held a number of jobs lasting for a number of years each. I've personally obtained those opportunities without assistance and obtained most jobs that I've applied for.

...

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins

[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim

...

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:39 PM To: Jad Wauthier; Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues

Even if a manager knows abut screen readers, he's not going to know they don't work for configuring a BIOS. The real problem is managers who have never heard of screen readers and don't know blind people can use computers at all. Or else they assume you can't swap out a hard drive because they can't imagine how they'd do it without sight. That's why I think sending them a link to your youtube video on how a blind guy builds a computer is the right thing to do. If you don't have a video like that, send them whatever you do have. If you don't have anything like that, get something.

On 05/21/14 14:16, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

Yeah, I've been cracking open devices for years. I change out RAM and drives and such. I actually went to school for computer engineering at first. I troubleshoot a lot of hardware issues by feel. I don't know how soldering or properly putting the connecters on Ethernet cable and such would work. I suppose employers would have the same questions. I am just curious as to how others convince people that there are ways of dealing with those situations and getting them past that stage so that there is an opportunity to prove it.

On 05/21/2014 1:59 PM, John Heim wrote: > Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can > perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all > my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the > cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard > usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never > figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a > CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this > stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to > be done, in part, by feel. > There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. > We can talk about that in another thread. > > But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to > get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer > that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that > is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your > disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is > to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your > disability. Turn it into an asset. > > > On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote: >> Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is >> much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually >> have really good interviews, but I still find that people are >> hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a >> lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I >> disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a >> problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. >> However, as technology grows and the markets become more >> competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies >> who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to >> want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen >> readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle >> it when part of the job is hardware >> repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the >> OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS >> installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, >> BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a >> will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read >> things out to you? >> >> On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote: >>> Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been >>> discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even >>> groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work >>> place. >>> >>> To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's >>> what my experience has been and what has worked for me. >>> 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview >>> process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone >>> figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume >>> stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some >>> cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my >>> situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the >>> situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the >>> issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience >>> with. (they know their customer) >>> >>> 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a >>> chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since >>> I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. >>> I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases >>> concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a >>> screen reader and how it helps you work etc. >>> >>> 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. >>> I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that >>> geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New >>> England might be tending towards more integration than say >>> Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization >>> though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I >>> will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this >>> process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients >>> tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the >>> list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find >>> though that searching for work in places where there are a >>> concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if >>> that helps at all but that's been my experience. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this >>>> list. >>>> Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing >>>> lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and >>>> employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have >>>> always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my >>>> ability to demonstrate my skill sets. >>>> >>>> Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are: >>>> >>>> 1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. >>>> How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech >>>> companies that are comfortable working with people with a >>>> different approach to interfacing with their technologies >>>> >>>> I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm >>>> really looking for various view points and possibly something that >>>> might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many >>>> close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. >>>> You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Jad >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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---

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John, I agree. I have just worked hard on maintaining an approachable and well-groomed appearance. Once they meet me in person and ascertain that I have the knowledge and skills to perform the job, they don't really care whether or not that I am blind. We do generally need to be ahead of our peers in the requisite nowledges, skills and abilities though and we won't always be paid comparably. I'm currently managing a helpdesk and I came into the department only having been a technical point of contact for a division within an organization so most of the trouble I handed off to others. Now I fix the trouble but still on a tier one level or whatever I can resolve via someone who is a walk-in to the service center or telephone call. The organization I work for has a lot going on though from Oracle systems for ECommerce and EDI to a number of websites, the typical computer and networks infrastructure, mobile platforms, telecommunications and audio visuals. We also employ about 30 individuals who are blind or legally blind so we support their assistive technology needs as well. I also provide a fair amount of input concerning accessibility to websites and applications. I've personally put computers together and share the same thoughts. I was a mainframe programmer for a number of years but had to switch directions when employment in that field diminished. I suppose, if I had the opportunity, that I'd prefer being a software engineer again as I could be more creative. Consider what you want to do and even do some volunteer work to prove your skills if possible. Amanda Lee -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John Heim Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:59 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Some of these questions are technical issues. For example, you can perform hardwaremaintenance tasks even if you are blind. I build all my own computers. The only thing I get help with is plugging in the cables to the reset, power-on, and hd indicator. A motherboard usually comes with a diagram on how to connect these and I have never figured out a way to interpret that. But you can learn to install a CPU, RAM, and a hard disk. In fact, I am actually better at this stuff than my sighted co-workers because so often this stuff has to be done, in part, by feel. There are also a lot of tricks to help with bioses and boot loaders. We can talk about that in another thread. But of course there are times when you simply are going to have to get sighted assistance. You have to convince a prospective employer that you will be worth that minor inconvenience. One way to do that is to have such great qualifications that they'll overlook your disability. Admittedly, that's pretty tough. I think the best bet is to kind of wow them with your determination to over come your disability. Turn it into an asset. On 05/21/14 12:25, Jad Wauthier wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I do take my laptop with me because it is much easier to show how I work than it is to explain. I usually have really good interviews, but I still find that people are hesitant to "take a risk". I have found in Tennessee, and to a lesser extent in Texas, that the interview goes much smoother when I disclose my blindness before the in person interview. If there is a problem, I would like to get it out on the table before hand. However, as technology grows and the markets become more competitive, it seems increasingly more difficult to find companies who will take someone who is at any disadvantage. Everyone seems to want developers to code everything, including the stuff screen readers can't handle. Is it the same for admins? How do you handle it when part of the job is hardware repair/configuration/installation or system level stuff before the OS loads? I was very interested in the thread about talking OS installations, but that doesn't cover interacting with boot loaders, BIOS, etc. How do you convince employers that "where there's a will, there's a way", even if it means grabbing a buddy to read things out to you?

On 05/21/2014 11:56 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Hahaha honestly, the only place I’ve ever been outright discriminated against was Texas. Maybe things have changed but nonetheless that was my experience. It’s to bad too, I really like Texas and the whole midwest in general. I’ve only had luck though on the coasts. On May 21, 2014, at 2:05 PM, John Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

Come on, Scott, I can't believe you trotted out that old stereotype against mid-westerners. I doubt there is any balidity to it whatsoever. You know we have electricity, running water, the whole works here these days.

On 05/21/14 11:56, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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This was working for a division of Sprint in the Houston area. I managed to get them to put in writing that they didn’t want to hire me because I was blind. I claimed I needed a reason for my unemployment insurance. My attorney did the happy happy dance which was quite an experience. (especially because I had a 10 year work history at that point) I’m absolutely certain though that there are open minded employers in Texas and even Houston I just happened to find one that wasn’t. On May 21, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

that is odd. Here in Austin, there is a school for the blind and a trade training center. They don't seem to be tech oriented though.

On 05/21/2014 1:13 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hahaha honestly, the only place I’ve ever been outright discriminated against was Texas. Maybe things have changed but nonetheless that was my experience. It’s to bad too, I really like Texas and the whole midwest in general. I’ve only had luck though on the coasts.

On May 21, 2014, at 2:05 PM, John Heim<jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:

...

Come on, Scott, I can't believe you trotted out that old stereotype against mid-westerners. I doubt there is any balidity to it whatsoever. You know we have electricity, running water, the whole works here these days.

On 05/21/14 11:56, Scott Granados wrote:

...

Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it’s been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it’s impact on the work place.

To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here’s what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don’t disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer)

2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I’m not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc.

3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don’t know of a stock way of answering that. I’d say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that’s been my experience.

Thanks Scott

On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier<jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

---

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Hi, I agree with all that Scott has said. I have elements on my CV that might give it away like sitting on the Board Of Directors as a Trustee For The British Computer Association Of The Blind, but they aren't sure what my involvement is with Blindness at that stage. If there is no equal opportunities monitoring form as part of the application, I will tell them I'm Visually Impaired when offered the interview. More to show I'm comfortable with being Blind and put them hopefully at ease. Recently I completed an interview, and once the interview was over I had an open and frank conversation with the tech manager and HR person about how it all works. I know I did well in the interview and answered their questions that everyone else had to answer with ease, so I felt relaxed about the whole thing as they were very cool and professional. I've pretty much decided these days if they don't feed off my CV, and positive, and open and honest approach then I don't' want to work there. While it's possible to win hearts and minds and we need to put a bit of effort in, you can be building a rod for your own back by trying too hard to justify yourself. I'd say be honest in interviews, but be aware that an employer does not want to hear problems. It's a delicate balance between being fully up front about things and presenting the best case scenarios. What I'm saying is an employer doesn't' want to hear, you need to do this and that to accommodate me. They want to hear sure, I'm Blind and here are the skills I can bring to your business. I tend to play on the positives like the soft skills that people talk about like organisation, communication, flexibility, adaptability are hard wired into me. Good luck! Barry. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 21 May 2014 17:56 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Questions about employment issues Hi there, I think this is ok and on topic. I know it's been discussed before and there have been specific discussions and even groups formed to cover accessibility and it's impact on the work place. To answer your questions, there are no clear cut answers but here's what my experience has been and what has worked for me. 1. I really don't disclose my vision status during the interview process until the in person happens and then obviously everyone figures it out really rapidly. By that point hopefully your resume stands for itself and that helps to ease the situation. In some cases recruiters who I have worked for before are familiar with my situation and may on their own prep the possible client of the situation ahead of time. This has worked out well for me and the issue can be dealt with in a way that the recruiter has experience with. (they know their customer) 2. As for the discussing how you work I like to give the client a chance to ask questions in this area. I volunteer this though since I'm not sure legally how much they can ask about your disability. I find by bringing it up during the interview process it eases concerns. Maybe bring your laptop with you and demonstrate a screen reader and how it helps you work etc. 3. Finding people open to working with a blind engineer is tricky. I don't know of a stock way of answering that. I'd say that geography place a part in this. Places like San Francisco or New England might be tending towards more integration than say Stillwater Oklahoma. This is of course a gross generalization though and you can find exceptions on either side. One thing I will say is the more work I successfully complete the easier this process gets. Now that I have over 20 years experience the clients tend to see this first and foremost and blindness is way down the list of things they worry about. I could be lucky though. I find though that searching for work in places where there are a concentrated amount of blind people can be easier. Not sure if that helps at all but that's been my experience. Thanks Scott On May 21, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Jad Wauthier <jtwauthier@gmail.com> wrote:

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Thanks for the advice! I tend to agree. I've tried it both ways. People seem to be much more appreciative when I disclose it before hand. I've had similar experiences where I was able to show how valuable I could be to the company, providing things they currently don't have, but it just wasn't enough. I'm pretty much at the point where I want to venture out on my own. that's difficult for everyone though. I have a strong passion for technology, and maybe I can do something that will make a difference. On 05/21/2014 12:56 PM, John Heim wrote:

The issue of when to disclose your disability has come up from time to time on many lists that I am on. The conventional wisdom is to never disclose it and to wait until they see it for themselves at the interview. In my opinion, this is a mistake. I think you just end up going to a lot of interviews where you have no chance of getting the job.

The last time I was looking for a job, I made a point of telling the employer that I am blind. I even attached a couple of pages of pictures of construction and woodworking projects I had done. I said in the cover letter that I knew that attaching that kind of thing was unusual but I wanted to demonstrate that I don't let my disability stop me from doing anything.

My opinion is that to get a job, you need to find someone willing to take a chance on hiring a blind person. You and I may know there is a lot we can do but a typical manager is going to have a lot of reservations. You either have to be so good they will overlook your disability or you have to find someone who will take a chance on you. So I think playing up the "super blind guy" thing is legitimate. Let them find out later that blind people don't really have super spidey sense or whatever.

Regarding explaining how you use a computer, I used to bring a laptop with a screen reader to job interviews. I actually diagnosed someone's network issues during a job interview that way. They were having periodic problems with their linux dhcp server. I plugged in my linux laptop, asked for a lease, and got an error message that it was out of leases. I figured it probably wasn't releasing leases when a machine is disconnected so I asked if rebooting the dhcp server tended to fix the problem. They said yes so I gave them my theory and how to fix it. They had a Windows tech guy there who didn't know how to manage the linuxmachine but he had made some change and that was probably what caused it. Of course, I'll never know if I was right but I didn't get that job. They sent me a letter saying they really needed a linux guy who could also create images for their web site. I think that's a mistake, of course. Anybody can do that.

Finally, regarding where to find companies willing to hire a blind person, I recommend government agencies, especially colleges and universities. For one thing, the managers aren't so much responsible for the bottom line. Productivity is still important, even at a university buta manager at a university doesn't have to constantly worry about the profit margin.

On 05/21/14 11:45, Jad Wauthier wrote:

...

I sincerely apologize if this is an inappropriate topic for this list. Does anyone know of any resources like forums, other mailing lists, etc which deal with issues regarding blindness and employment in tech industries? I am a developer, and I have always found it difficult to find employment in spite of my ability to demonstrate my skill sets.

Some of the questions I am looking for answers to are:

1. When is the ideal time to disclose my visual limitations 2. How best to approach the topic of how I work 3. How to find tech companies that are comfortable working with people with a different approach to interfacing with their technologies

I realize that some questions don't have clear cut answers. I'm really looking for various view points and possibly something that might prove helpful in my current job search. I've had so many close calls. I would appreciate any insight anyone could offer. You can contact me directly if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thanks.

Jad

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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