and here's another thing I would like to see work... remote access without having to install the screen reading software on the other machine. rick software developer Paul Ecke Ranch mailto:rwatson@EckeRanch.com www.Ecke.com Tel. (760)944-4007 (760) 753-1134 Ext 4007 -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:40 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface. I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter. It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task. I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins ECKE RANCH / ECKE GERANIUMS, LLC Providing Integrity, Innovation, & Grower Solutions for 3 Generations! This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information of Paul Ecke Ranch and is intended for a specific individual. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication, including any attachments without reading or saving them in any manner, and you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. Proporcionando integridad, innovaci?n, y soluciones para cultivadores por tres generaciones! Esta comunicaci?n (incluidos los anexos) puede contener informaci?n privilegiada o confidencial de Paul Ecke Ranch y est? dirigida a un individuo espec?fico. Si usted no es el destinatario, debe eliminar esta comunicaci?n, incluidos los archivos adjuntos sin leerlos o guardarlos de ninguna manera, y se le notifica por este medio que cualquier divulgaci?n, copia o distribuci?n de esta comunicaci?n, o la toma de cualquier acci?n basada en ella, est? estrictamente prohibido.

Hi, I'm all for this one. Dave On 9/19/11, Rick Watson wrote:

and here's another thing I would like to see work... remote access without having to install the screen reading software on the other machine. rick

software developer Paul Ecke Ranch mailto:rwatson@EckeRanch.com www.Ecke.com Tel. (760)944-4007 (760) 753-1134 Ext 4007

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:40 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

ECKE RANCH / ECKE GERANIUMS, LLC Providing Integrity, Innovation, & Grower Solutions for 3 Generations!

This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information of Paul Ecke Ranch and is intended for a specific individual. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication, including any attachments without reading or saving them in any manner, and you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

Proporcionando integridad, innovaci?n, y soluciones para cultivadores por tres generaciones!

Esta comunicaci?n (incluidos los anexos) puede contener informaci?n privilegiada o confidencial de Paul Ecke Ranch y est? dirigida a un individuo espec?fico. Si usted no es el destinatario, debe eliminar esta comunicaci?n, incluidos los archivos adjuntos sin leerlos o guardarlos de ninguna manera, y se le notifica por este medio que cualquier divulgaci?n, copia o distribuci?n de esta comunicaci?n, o la toma de cualquier acci?n basada en ella, est? estrictamente prohibido.

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

You know that about 10 years ago, the National Federation of the Blind asked Microsoft to stop improving narrator. They were afraid it would drive Freedom Scientific and GW Micro out of business. I thought that was a poor decision even at the time. But now with the emergence of nvda and voiceOver, it looks even worse.

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature like in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers. I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like that model a lot better. -----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface. I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter. It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task. I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

It depends. Voice Over is different. -----Original Message----- From: Octavian Rasnita Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 1:09 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 There are issues with VO but there are issues with JFW. In general, it's very good and I like using it more. It's more stable than say JFW and more a part of the OS so feels more natural in the way it's used. These are personal opinions though really best left up to the individual user. Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature like in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.

I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like that model a lot better.

-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature

in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.

I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like

I disagree. The time for companies like FS should be over. It's time for the actual OS developers to release this functionality as just another feature. While JFW did blaze a path and has been an over all benefit to us in recent years it's become a real hog in term of resources and become less and less stable. Features are great but the usability has steadily declined. Tools like Voice Over are much more of a benefit, especially for folks in our professions because they allow for installation and total management of the OS instead of the limited view that JFW gives us in the windows world. Microsoft adding much more functionality to their OS natively would help solve this problem and do a lot more to help us on the job front than some over priced OCR feature or a package like JFW that may well crash on you when you need it anyway. It also removes the complex licensing requirements and the need to carry around a bloated screen reader on a stick. I totally agree with you that each has great features and sure I'd like to see a single product with them all but by removing the cost of entry that an FS or GW Micro introduces you only help everyone, especially if Microsoft makes this available and opens up the world of low cost computers to the blind with out the confiscatory fees that say an FS charges. Companies like FS can still make money in the braille space and innovate but they will be forced to drop their price points to one that makes more sense than the artificially inflated rates they charge now because of government backing. In the end, we're better served with the googles or Microsofts and Apples of the world handling our requirements directly and letting these small nitch companies die off. -----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:10 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 I would like to think I'm quite impartial when it comes to screen readers. I am mainly a Jaws user however I also use Window eyes, Orca in Linux, Speakup, also in Linux, Voice over on the Mac and iPhone / iPad I see benefits in each of them but they all have good points that I wish the others had. I completely agree with the arguement that Microsoft should enhance their narator to be on par with Voiceover but I don't agree for a moment that FreedomScientific and GWMicro have no place in the market. That's frankly just silly. FreedomScientific and GWMicro are required because they'll generate competition when Microsoft finally get around to including better accessibility in Windows. I firmly believe that they will also continue to be leaders in their field because very simply, they've been doing it for longer. They have a lot more experience and one thing that I agree that I have heard Eric Damery from FreedomScientific say from time to time. Jaws has come out of the relm of making aplications accessible and into the relm of making applications usable and efficient. This is so true and it doesn't just apply to Jaws. Let me give you an example. Voiceover is brilliant but there's no way that anyone can say that it gives as much information automatically as Jaws or Window eyes. For example. When a window is presented and notifications are given somewhere, Jaws and Window Eyes have scripts and functionality to have that text read automatically. This is a simple example of how these two applications are more market driven than voiceover. As I said before, Voiceover has features that I wish Jaws, Window eyes and Orca had but the reality is that Jaws, Window Eyes and to an extent even Orca are more driven by user needs and have more experience in the assistive technology space than the apple developers for Voiceover. I fully understand that users have problems with things that FreedomScientific have done in the past and I've been there and I've shouted louder than most people. In saying that, I've also been helped by FreedomScientific and their I just cant thank them enough for their flexability over the past while. I have written hundreds of paragraphs condemning both freedomScientific and GWMicro for their lack of inovation over the past few years but credit where credit is due. The conveenient OCR in Jaws 13 and the new remote assistance support in the latest version of Window eyes are features that users need. I don't see Microsoft providing that same level of support, accessibility or usability. So. Please be careful what you wish for. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: "Octavian Rasnita" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Date: 19/09/2011 18:11 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 like that

model a lot better.

-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature

in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.

I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like

Darragh, for the most part I agree with you. I really think there's two very different use cases being talked about here. Case 1 is an application like Office, Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc. that is either well designed out of the box or well supported by the screen reader. In this case, it's a well tested application, everyone either knows how to use it or can easily find documentation on how to use it with the screen reader, and can move forward. Case 2 is an application that is basically slapped in front of you, there's no scripts or customizations for the screen reader, and you're basically on your own to explore it and get up to speed with it. A screen reader that's great at case 1 might not be so great at case 2 and the reverse. The tools needed and the approaches taken are very different. I personally think Voiceover on the Mac is really good for the second use case and not so much for the first use case. It totally depends on what your needs as a computer user are. I personally do think Microsoft should be commiting more to accessibility than they are. I've played with the Windows 8 preview, and Narrator is miles ahead of where it is in Windows 7, but I still wouldn't rely on it as a screen reader. I'd personally like to see Narrator get to a place where it could compete, even though Microsoft hasn't been doing assistive technology for years they have something to contribute. Honestly they know the platform, and they know where the platform's going. I sometimes think that things are changing so fast its getting harder for the assistive companies to adapt, and they've got their userbase using the older software and they're happy with that, so there's not the biggest push to adapt. I challenge the industry to have metro style applications totally accessible on day one of Windows 8's release. I don't think it will happen, as most blind people wouldn't push for Metro apps to be accessible, so why as an assistive tech company would you get the resources to work on something that isn't in demand? Microsoft, on the other hand, I think would have a better chance of doing so, just like Apple does, because its their platform and so its in their best interest to make sure it works properly with the accessibility software. When Mac OSX Lion came out and if it wasn't accessible out of the box like Snow Leopard was, imagine what blind users would be saying, in comparison to the Windows 8 example above. So what's a happy medium? I don't know. I've wondered sometime about Microsoft buying out one of the assistive tech vendors and using their technology and experience and combining with Microsoft's resources and knowledge of the platform. That could go many ways and I don't see Microsoft doing that honestly as most blind people would be scared out of their witts if that happened. And honestly, let's just face it here. Perhaps, for whatever reason, Apple places a higher value on accessibility than Microsoft. Strange, but possible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:11 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 I would like to think I'm quite impartial when it comes to screen readers. I am mainly a Jaws user however I also use Window eyes, Orca in Linux, Speakup, also in Linux, Voice over on the Mac and iPhone / iPad I see benefits in each of them but they all have good points that I wish the others had. I completely agree with the arguement that Microsoft should enhance their narator to be on par with Voiceover but I don't agree for a moment that FreedomScientific and GWMicro have no place in the market. That's frankly just silly. FreedomScientific and GWMicro are required because they'll generate competition when Microsoft finally get around to including better accessibility in Windows. I firmly believe that they will also continue to be leaders in their field because very simply, they've been doing it for longer. They have a lot more experience and one thing that I agree that I have heard Eric Damery from FreedomScientific say from time to time. Jaws has come out of the relm of making aplications accessible and into the relm of making applications usable and efficient. This is so true and it doesn't just apply to Jaws. Let me give you an example. Voiceover is brilliant but there's no way that anyone can say that it gives as much information automatically as Jaws or Window eyes. For example. When a window is presented and notifications are given somewhere, Jaws and Window Eyes have scripts and functionality to have that text read automatically. This is a simple example of how these two applications are more market driven than voiceover. As I said before, Voiceover has features that I wish Jaws, Window eyes and Orca had but the reality is that Jaws, Window Eyes and to an extent even Orca are more driven by user needs and have more experience in the assistive technology space than the apple developers for Voiceover. I fully understand that users have problems with things that FreedomScientific have done in the past and I've been there and I've shouted louder than most people. In saying that, I've also been helped by FreedomScientific and their I just cant thank them enough for their flexability over the past while. I have written hundreds of paragraphs condemning both freedomScientific and GWMicro for their lack of inovation over the past few years but credit where credit is due. The conveenient OCR in Jaws 13 and the new remote assistance support in the latest version of Window eyes are features that users need. I don't see Microsoft providing that same level of support, accessibility or usability. So. Please be careful what you wish for. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: "Octavian Rasnita" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Date: 19/09/2011 18:11 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 like that

model a lot better.

-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature

in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.

I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like

On this question of accessibility, does anyone know if there is a remote access solution using voiceover. I just got a mac and am basically converted over for personal use. Thanks Rick software developer Paul Ecke Ranch mailto:rwatson@EckeRanch.com www.Ecke.com Tel. (760)944-4007 (760) 753-1134 Ext 4007 -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:04 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 The reason Apple developed voiceOver is because colleges and universities couldn't buy Macs without it. The reason Microsoft doesn't put more development resources into narrator is that they can still sell Windows without it. I was in the department here at the University of Wisconsin that set up student computer labs. I personally didn't have anything to do with it but i worked in a group with the people who did. They really like Macs for all kinds of reasons. But they had to start putting Windows machines in student labs in order to make them accessible to blind students. They probably could have used some Macs and some Windows machines and for a while they did try that. But its easier for all the machines to be the same so Windows machines gradually pushed out Macs. But now the trend has reversed. I wouldn't be surprised if sometime soon Microsoft does include a screen reader in Windows just to compete with Apple for marketting to schools, colleges, and universities. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Shugart" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Darragh, for the most part I agree with you. I really think there's two very different use cases being talked about here. Case 1 is an application like Office, Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc. that is either well designed out of the box or well supported by the screen reader. In this case, it's a well tested application, everyone either knows how to use it or can easily find documentation on how to use it with the screen reader, and can move forward. Case 2 is an application that is basically slapped in front of you, there's no scripts or customizations for the screen reader, and you're basically on your own to explore it and get up to speed with it. A screen reader that's great at case 1 might not be so great at case 2 and the reverse. The tools needed and the approaches taken are very different. I personally think Voiceover on the Mac is really good for the second use case and not so much for the first use case. It totally depends on what your needs as a computer user are. I personally do think Microsoft should be commiting more to accessibility than they are. I've played with the Windows 8 preview, and Narrator is miles ahead of where it is in Windows 7, but I still wouldn't rely on it as a screen reader. I'd personally like to see Narrator get to a place where it could compete, even though Microsoft hasn't been doing assistive technology for years they have something to contribute. Honestly they know the platform, and they know where the platform's going. I sometimes think that things are changing so fast its getting harder for the assistive companies to adapt, and they've got their userbase using the older software and they're happy with that, so there's not the biggest push to adapt. I challenge the industry to have metro style applications totally accessible on day one of Windows 8's release. I don't think it will happen, as most blind people wouldn't push for Metro apps to be accessible, so why as an assistive tech company would you get the resources to work on something that isn't in demand? Microsoft, on the other hand, I think would have a better chance of doing so, just like Apple does, because its their platform and so its in their best interest to make sure it works properly with the accessibility software. When Mac OSX Lion came out and if it wasn't accessible out of the box like Snow Leopard was, imagine what blind users would be saying, in comparison to the Windows 8 example above. So what's a happy medium? I don't know. I've wondered sometime about Microsoft buying out one of the assistive tech vendors and using their technology and experience and combining with Microsoft's resources and knowledge of the platform. That could go many ways and I don't see Microsoft doing that honestly as most blind people would be scared out of their witts if that happened. And honestly, let's just face it here. Perhaps, for whatever reason, Apple places a higher value on accessibility than Microsoft. Strange, but possible. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:11 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 I would like to think I'm quite impartial when it comes to screen readers. I am mainly a Jaws user however I also use Window eyes, Orca in Linux, Speakup, also in Linux, Voice over on the Mac and iPhone / iPad I see benefits in each of them but they all have good points that I wish the others had. I completely agree with the arguement that Microsoft should enhance their narator to be on par with Voiceover but I don't agree for a moment that FreedomScientific and GWMicro have no place in the market. That's frankly just silly. FreedomScientific and GWMicro are required because they'll generate competition when Microsoft finally get around to including better accessibility in Windows. I firmly believe that they will also continue to be leaders in their field because very simply, they've been doing it for longer. They have a lot more experience and one thing that I agree that I have heard Eric Damery from FreedomScientific say from time to time. Jaws has come out of the relm of making aplications accessible and into the relm of making applications usable and efficient. This is so true and it doesn't just apply to Jaws. Let me give you an example. Voiceover is brilliant but there's no way that anyone can say that it gives as much information automatically as Jaws or Window eyes. For example. When a window is presented and notifications are given somewhere, Jaws and Window Eyes have scripts and functionality to have that text read automatically. This is a simple example of how these two applications are more market driven than voiceover. As I said before, Voiceover has features that I wish Jaws, Window eyes and Orca had but the reality is that Jaws, Window Eyes and to an extent even Orca are more driven by user needs and have more experience in the assistive technology space than the apple developers for Voiceover. I fully understand that users have problems with things that FreedomScientific have done in the past and I've been there and I've shouted louder than most people. In saying that, I've also been helped by FreedomScientific and their I just cant thank them enough for their flexability over the past while. I have written hundreds of paragraphs condemning both freedomScientific and GWMicro for their lack of inovation over the past few years but credit where credit is due. The conveenient OCR in Jaws 13 and the new remote assistance support in the latest version of Window eyes are features that users need. I don't see Microsoft providing that same level of support, accessibility or usability. So. Please be careful what you wish for. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: "Octavian Rasnita" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Date: 19/09/2011 18:11 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 like that

model a lot better.

-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins ECKE RANCH / ECKE GERANIUMS, LLC Providing Integrity, Innovation, & Grower Solutions for 3 Generations! This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information of Paul Ecke Ranch and is intended for a specific individual. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication, including any attachments without reading or saving them in any manner, and you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. Proporcionando integridad, innovación, y soluciones para cultivadores por tres generaciones! Esta comunicación (incluidos los anexos) puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial de Paul Ecke Ranch y está dirigida a un individuo específico. Si usted no es el destinatario, debe eliminar esta comunicación, incluidos los archivos adjuntos sin leerlos o guardarlos de ninguna manera, y se le notifica por este medio que cualquier divulgación, copia o distribución de esta comunicación, o la toma de cualquier acción basada en ella, está estrictamente prohibido.

You would be much better under iOs with a bluetooth keyboard imo. You can use an app called server control to do the remote admin stuff and it has exchange support out of the box with the built in mail client. On 21/09/2011, Alex Coleman wrote:

Does anyone know of any accessible android apps that can be used to log into a corporate network remotely, in order to perform basic functions like server restarts, unlocking user accounts, etc.?

My sighted IT counterpart is using Rove Mobile Admin, but I don't want to go android if I won't be able to use any of the remoting tools.

I also need an accessible Exchange mail client that supports email push.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Alex

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I have to agree. We looked into this a while ago for me, and while Android has made a lot of accessibility improvements, its not quite at the IOS level. There are several accessible mail clients but I don't think any support Exchange. Also, last I checked, unless you're using a client with build-in speech, reviewing e-mail messages was still a challenge. I seem to remember hearing that's been resolved now but am not sure. We use iPhones and they integrate very nicely into the corporate network, they can be managed very well, wiped in case of a security threat and accessibilitywise no issues. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ben Mustill-Rose Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:18 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Smartphone for IT Professionals You would be much better under iOs with a bluetooth keyboard imo. You can use an app called server control to do the remote admin stuff and it has exchange support out of the box with the built in mail client. On 21/09/2011, Alex Coleman wrote:

Does anyone know of any accessible android apps that can be used to log into a corporate network remotely, in order to perform basic functions like server restarts, unlocking user accounts, etc.?

My sighted IT counterpart is using Rove Mobile Admin, but I don't want to go android if I won't be able to use any of the remoting tools.

I also need an accessible Exchange mail client that supports email push.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Alex

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Good morning, someone mentioned using iphone as a way to access servers remotely. How accessible was this and what did this permit? also what was it called? thanks rick software developer Paul Ecke Ranch mailto:rwatson@EckeRanch.com www.Ecke.com Tel. (760)944-4007 (760) 753-1134 Ext 4007 -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 9:35 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Smartphone for IT Professionals That makes 3, I had a similar experience with my last gig. The IPhone was a much better bet. There's a VM tool that someone demoed for me that was quite interesting as well that ran under IOS. Apple's where it's at in terms of accessibility at least for now. Good things are happening on the droid side but it's not there yet. Improving steadily though. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Shugart Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:22 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Smartphone for IT Professionals I have to agree. We looked into this a while ago for me, and while Android has made a lot of accessibility improvements, its not quite at the IOS level. There are several accessible mail clients but I don't think any support Exchange. Also, last I checked, unless you're using a client with build-in speech, reviewing e-mail messages was still a challenge. I seem to remember hearing that's been resolved now but am not sure. We use iPhones and they integrate very nicely into the corporate network, they can be managed very well, wiped in case of a security threat and accessibilitywise no issues. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ben Mustill-Rose Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:18 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Smartphone for IT Professionals You would be much better under iOs with a bluetooth keyboard imo. You can use an app called server control to do the remote admin stuff and it has exchange support out of the box with the built in mail client. On 21/09/2011, Alex Coleman wrote:

Does anyone know of any accessible android apps that can be used to log into a corporate network remotely, in order to perform basic functions like server restarts, unlocking user accounts, etc.?

My sighted IT counterpart is using Rove Mobile Admin, but I don't want to go android if I won't be able to use any of the remoting tools.

I also need an accessible Exchange mail client that supports email push.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Alex

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins ECKE RANCH / ECKE GERANIUMS, LLC Providing Integrity, Innovation, & Grower Solutions for 3 Generations! This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information of Paul Ecke Ranch and is intended for a specific individual. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication, including any attachments without reading or saving them in any manner, and you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. Proporcionando integridad, innovaci?n, y soluciones para cultivadores por tres generaciones! Esta comunicaci?n (incluidos los anexos) puede contener informaci?n privilegiada o confidencial de Paul Ecke Ranch y est? dirigida a un individuo espec?fico. Si usted no es el destinatario, debe eliminar esta comunicaci?n, incluidos los archivos adjuntos sin leerlos o guardarlos de ninguna manera, y se le notifica por este medio que cualquier divulgaci?n, copia o distribuci?n de esta comunicaci?n, o la toma de cualquier acci?n basada en ella, est? estrictamente prohibido.

Personally, I'd like to see companies like FS and GW just go away because they aren't needed. It would be great if Microsoft took over screen reader development in house like Apple has and rendered them useless, at least in the screen reading space. Having accessibility as just another feature

in the Apple world seems like a much better long term plan for we blind users and also reduces a big part of the cost barriers.

I've moved a big part of my life over to Voice Over now and just like

I would like to think I'm quite impartial when it comes to screen readers. I am mainly a Jaws user however I also use Window eyes, Orca in Linux, Speakup, also in Linux, Voice over on the Mac and iPhone / iPad I see benefits in each of them but they all have good points that I wish the others had. I completely agree with the arguement that Microsoft should enhance their narator to be on par with Voiceover but I don't agree for a moment that FreedomScientific and GWMicro have no place in the market. That's frankly just silly. FreedomScientific and GWMicro are required because they'll generate competition when Microsoft finally get around to including better accessibility in Windows. I firmly believe that they will also continue to be leaders in their field because very simply, they've been doing it for longer. They have a lot more experience and one thing that I agree that I have heard Eric Damery from FreedomScientific say from time to time. Jaws has come out of the relm of making aplications accessible and into the relm of making applications usable and efficient. This is so true and it doesn't just apply to Jaws. Let me give you an example. Voiceover is brilliant but there's no way that anyone can say that it gives as much information automatically as Jaws or Window eyes. For example. When a window is presented and notifications are given somewhere, Jaws and Window Eyes have scripts and functionality to have that text read automatically. This is a simple example of how these two applications are more market driven than voiceover. As I said before, Voiceover has features that I wish Jaws, Window eyes and Orca had but the reality is that Jaws, Window Eyes and to an extent even Orca are more driven by user needs and have more experience in the assistive technology space than the apple developers for Voiceover. I fully understand that users have problems with things that FreedomScientific have done in the past and I've been there and I've shouted louder than most people. In saying that, I've also been helped by FreedomScientific and their I just cant thank them enough for their flexability over the past while. I have written hundreds of paragraphs condemning both freedomScientific and GWMicro for their lack of inovation over the past few years but credit where credit is due. The conveenient OCR in Jaws 13 and the new remote assistance support in the latest version of Window eyes are features that users need. I don't see Microsoft providing that same level of support, accessibility or usability. So. Please be careful what you wish for. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: "Octavian Rasnita" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Date: 19/09/2011 18:11 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org Does VoiceOver offer a better accessibility than JAWS? Thanks. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8 like that

model a lot better.

-----Original Message----- From: Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Windows 8

The main thing I really want to see from assistive technology developers such as FreedomScientific and GWMicro is some kind of method that will enable blind users to access the system using the touch interface.

I particularly like the Mac, the iPhone and the iPod for their utilization of touch to enhance accessibility. For example, on the Mac, jestures can be used to move between controls and interact with elements etc. The touch pad can be used as if you were touching the screen giving me a better idea of the visual layout of web pages and dialogues. This is very useful when someone sighted tells me that a control that I want to interact with is at the top right of the screen for example. On IOS devices web browsing is really easy with the utilization of the touch screen even without using swipe jestures and the roter.

It's going to be a chalange but I feer that the main compeditors in the screen reader industry will not be up to the task.

I also thing that there may be secret feers of litigation if they infringe on pattents filed by Apple regarding copyrighted touch screen access techniques. I'd like to be proven wrong on that point though. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins