question for the managers ...
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field with zero certifications?)
Katherine, I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found: * A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today. * Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless. * What I am looking for comes down to a few things: ** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using? ** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small. ** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor. Specifically about being blind: Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff. Does that speak to your questions? --Will On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field with zero certifications?) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
Well, you're confirming one thing I said -- managers tend to hire people who they hit it off with. They will overlook all kinds of flaws on a resume if they just like the person enough. It's also good advice to try to show curiosity and initiative in an interview. Showing curiosity, initiative, and just generally having a positive attitude are just about the best things you can do in an interview to make the employer like you. And blind people wouldn't be at a disadvantage in showing those characteristics. The thing you are missing though is that the trick is to get the interview first. While you may consider degrees and certifications useless, I doubt that opinion is common across the industry. A huge percentage of the professionals in this country have college degrees. That person doing the interview probably has a degree so they're not likely to think college degrees are less than useless. Actually, it's probably more common for an IT manager to think that not having a degree shows a lack of discipline. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying that opinion is not particularly rare. You're more likely to be asked why you never went to college than you are to be congratulated for not having done so. On 10/15/2015 09:44 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field wi t
h zero certifications?)
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
Look, if you're relying on HR to get you in the door, you're going to be unemployed. If human resources people had any skills at all, they'd be doing something else. I generally find that about 2/3 of the candidates that come through HR are not even worth the time it takes to interview them. When I find people on my own, I already filter them out. I'm looking for one thing: competence. You can contribute to open source or otherwise web-visible projects. You can put your profile on linkedin and other social media sites. This includes blogging and commenting in forums. You can attend local professional focused meetups. If you want to find people who hire, you can do it. The trick is not to worry about the people who don't want to work with you, but to find the ones who do. On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 11:07 am -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Well, you're confirming one thing I said -- managers tend to hire people who they hit it off with. They will overlook all kinds of flaws on a resume if they just like the person enough. It's also good advice to try to show curiosity and initiative in an interview. Showing curiosity, initiative, and just generally having a positive attitude are just about the best things you can do in an interview to make the employer like you. And blind people wouldn't be at a disadvantage in showing those characteristics.
The thing you are missing though is that the trick is to get the interview first. While you may consider degrees and certifications useless, I doubt that opinion is common across the industry. A huge percentage of the professionals in this country have college degrees. That person doing the interview probably has a degree so they're not likely to think college degrees are less than useless. Actually, it's probably more common for an IT manager to think that not having a degree shows a lack of discipline. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying that opinion is not particularly rare. You're more likely to be asked why you never went to college than you are to be congratulated for not having done so.
On 10/15/2015 09:44 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field wi t
h zero certifications?)
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
Will, you make a huge point here. LinkedIn is critical. I get more work now from Linkedin than anywhere and that’s the first thing a recruiter does is check your profile and send you a request.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
Look, if you're relying on HR to get you in the door, you're going to be unemployed. If human resources people had any skills at all, they'd be doing something else. I generally find that about 2/3 of the candidates that come through HR are not even worth the time it takes to interview them. When I find people on my own, I already filter them out.
I'm looking for one thing: competence.
You can contribute to open source or otherwise web-visible projects.
You can put your profile on linkedin and other social media sites. This includes blogging and commenting in forums.
You can attend local professional focused meetups.
If you want to find people who hire, you can do it.
The trick is not to worry about the people who don't want to work with you, but to find the ones who do.
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 11:07 am -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Well, you're confirming one thing I said -- managers tend to hire people who they hit it off with. They will overlook all kinds of flaws on a resume if they just like the person enough. It's also good advice to try to show curiosity and initiative in an interview. Showing curiosity, initiative, and just generally having a positive attitude are just about the best things you can do in an interview to make the employer like you. And blind people wouldn't be at a disadvantage in showing those characteristics.
The thing you are missing though is that the trick is to get the interview first. While you may consider degrees and certifications useless, I doubt that opinion is common across the industry. A huge percentage of the professionals in this country have college degrees. That person doing the interview probably has a degree so they're not likely to think college degrees are less than useless. Actually, it's probably more common for an IT manager to think that not having a degree shows a lack of discipline. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying that opinion is not particularly rare. You're more likely to be asked why you never went to college than you are to be congratulated for not having done so.
On 10/15/2015 09:44 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field wi t
h zero certifications?)
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Scott, Thanks for that. Yes, I've seen it too. I've also had several recruiters (working for newer firms to be sure) tell me they -only- look at linkedin. Generalize that to twitter, github and similar platforms and you have the makings of a strategy for getting noticed. On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 5:51 pm +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Will, you make a huge point here. LinkedIn is critical. I get more work now from Linkedin than anywhere and that’s the first thing a recruiter does is check your profile and send you a request.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
Look, if you're relying on HR to get you in the door, you're going to be unemployed. If human resources people had any skills at all, they'd be doing something else. I generally find that about 2/3 of the candidates that come through HR are not even worth the time it takes to interview them. When I find people on my own, I already filter them out.
I'm looking for one thing: competence.
You can contribute to open source or otherwise web-visible projects.
You can put your profile on linkedin and other social media sites. This includes blogging and commenting in forums.
You can attend local professional focused meetups.
If you want to find people who hire, you can do it.
The trick is not to worry about the people who don't want to work with you, but to find the ones who do.
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 11:07 am -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Well, you're confirming one thing I said -- managers tend to hire people who they hit it off with. They will overlook all kinds of flaws on a resume if they just like the person enough. It's also good advice to try to show curiosity and initiative in an interview. Showing curiosity, initiative, and just generally having a positive attitude are just about the best things you can do in an interview to make the employer like you. And blind people wouldn't be at a disadvantage in showing those characteristics.
The thing you are missing though is that the trick is to get the interview first. While you may consider degrees and certifications useless, I doubt that opinion is common across the industry. A huge percentage of the professionals in this country have college degrees. That person doing the interview probably has a degree so they're not likely to think college degrees are less than useless. Actually, it's probably more common for an IT manager to think that not having a degree shows a lack of discipline. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying that opinion is not particularly rare. You're more likely to be asked why you never went to college than you are to be congratulated for not having done so.
On 10/15/2015 09:44 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field wi t
h zero certifications?)
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
Will, don’t you find in the interview setting you get a lot of real broad questions now. Things like What’s the most difficult problem you’ve had to solve and why? What’s one of your big accomplishments? Then you’d drill real hard on the tech in the resume. If you put down BGP for example you better know as much as possible about that routing protocol.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field with zero certifications?) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Scott, Absolutely. The sort of question you're referring to is called "behavioral interviewing" (for those of you who want to study up, googling should find you the right sort of questions). But yes, anything on the resume is fair game. If a person is only at an entry level with a technology or process, I'd rather that be indicated clearly. Or when it comes up in the interview, being able to state the exact level of understanding is very helpful. I'm also looking for the ability to think through a problem. I had an interview in the last couple weeks where I was walking the candidate through an example. I pointed out a non-obvious optimization and he just couldn't wrap his head around the change I was suggesting. I'd have preferred he figure it out on his own, of course, but if he'd been able to follow my thought process, which I explained, that would have gotten him continued attention from me. (And just as a control on that question, I did explain the problem to a non-technical person and that person got it very quickly.) On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 5:47 pm +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Will, don’t you find in the interview setting you get a lot of real broad questions now. Things like
What’s the most difficult problem you’ve had to solve and why? What’s one of your big accomplishments?
Then you’d drill real hard on the tech in the resume. If you put down BGP for example you better know as much as possible about that routing protocol.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
Katherine,
I've got a number of years experience working in and hiring for various IT positions. Here's what I've found:
* A college degree is not relevant in the slightest. If you insist on having one, I'd prefer that you get a degree in something besides a computing field. None of the knowledge I need on a day to day basis was available when I went to college, nor, so far as I can tell, is it taught today.
* Certifications have a very narrow window of usefulness. When interviewing a candidate for a position, my only interest in the certification is that I'll grill extra hard on any area you claim to know something about. In a few cases, there are customer requirements or sales needs that indicate that certifications are worth having. Otherwise, they're at best useless.
* What I am looking for comes down to a few things:
** Are you curious? Have you, in the course of performing your duties, taken opportunities to learn and grow your skills and find better solutions or at least understand the limits and edge cases of the ones you're using?
** Have you made something on your own? Have you taken a technology or idea that you're heard about and done something with it? And "something" could be small.
** Are you interested in the work you do? A lot of us find this sort of work inherently interesting and demonstrate that in the way we approach much of life. That's one indication that you'd be good at this sort of work. For some people, this is just a job. So long as you can show me that you've worked hard, that you consider solving problems and helping people a high priority and a guiding principle in your professional activities, then it's another point in your favor.
Specifically about being blind:
Your job is to convince people that you can do work for them. I come into interviews as an expert on some things, as knowledgeable and experienced in others. That speaks volumes to people who need my skills. I've had a handful of potential employers who didn't get the whole "being blind" things over the years. That being said, most places, it's either not an issue or they take the chance to probe my abilities and find that I can do a ton of stuff.
Does that speak to your questions?
--Will
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 1:43 pm +0000, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field with zero certifications?) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message. If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, without a CISSP. Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job. Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need. Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, without a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level. I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average? Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers. On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
Interesting. This will hopefully come up in conversation later. Interestingly enough, I've found that Linkedin is more important than either Facebook or Twitter in my case (I'm on Twitter very prominently, use it both as a talking platform as wel as a platform to spread the latest tech and other news (follow me both @Cambridgeport90 and @StormlightTech)), though I've never seen Twitter come up in job interviews. But all of this is interesting stuff, and hopefully I can use it as points to draw from in conversation later on ... Remember, this thread isn't for me, it's on someone's behalf, for once. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:06 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level. I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average? Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers. On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Interesting. This will hopefully come up in conversation later. Interestingly enough, I've found that Linkedin is more important than either Facebook or Twitter in my case (I'm on Twitter very prominently, use it both as a talking platform as wel as a platform to spread the latest tech and other news (follow me both @Cambridgeport90 and @StormlightTech)), though I've never seen Twitter come up in job interviews. But all of this is interesting stuff, and hopefully I can use it as points to draw from in conversation later on ... Remember, this thread isn't for me, it's on someone's behalf, for once. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:06 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level. I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average? Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers. On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol. That guy helping his grandmother has: * shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems The person who just has a degree has: * drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money Which one is going to help the business more? On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ... -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol. That guy helping his grandmother has: * shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems The person who just has a degree has: * drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money Which one is going to help the business more? On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
We'd have to know more specifics about your two friends. Most likely, it's a difference in experience. You get the first job, it gets you the second. The second job gets you the third. Well, unless you work for Will in which case helping your grandma get on-line gets you the job. Just kidding, Will, it's a joke! On 10/15/2015 04:03 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ...
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
Hopefully he'll chime in here ... -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:36 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... We'd have to know more specifics about your two friends. Most likely, it's a difference in experience. You get the first job, it gets you the second. The second job gets you the third. Well, unless you work for Will in which case helping your grandma get on-line gets you the job. Just kidding, Will, it's a joke! On 10/15/2015 04:03 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ...
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hopefully he'll chime in here ... -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:36 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... We'd have to know more specifics about your two friends. Most likely, it's a difference in experience. You get the first job, it gets you the second. The second job gets you the third. Well, unless you work for Will in which case helping your grandma get on-line gets you the job. Just kidding, Will, it's a joke! On 10/15/2015 04:03 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ...
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
John, Yes, the first job is the hardest to get. But I'm all in favor of grandmothers getting online. If that was your experience, I'd ask you: Why AOL? How does she "get online"? What does she do online? Can you talk me through a problem she had that you helped her solve? If all you've got is a bunch of classes, you'll have to help me understand how that applies. The lousiest programmers I ever knew were top level computer science students. (mind you, that program did produce good programmers, I'm just not sure it was the classes that made them better.) I think they were just squeaking through in hopes of getting a credential, but they made some rather rookie mistakes given how advanced their coursework was. On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 4:36 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
We'd have to know more specifics about your two friends. Most likely, it's a difference in experience. You get the first job, it gets you the second. The second job gets you the third. Well, unless you work for Will in which case helping your grandma get on-line gets you the job.
Just kidding, Will, it's a joke!
On 10/15/2015 04:03 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ...
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
John makes great points and I really have and do value his opinions. I bought my way in to be fair. I didn’t have to find my first job, I created my first job starting my own carrier which I ran for 5 years and sold for a premium. Definitely know that’s not a route meant for all but it’s one way to go. The advantage was when I sold the company and went to find the next job I had president or CTO to put on my resume. I suspect having to find that first gig would have been near impossible with out real world experience. This is John’s point I think. That was my work around but I’m not sure how others address the problem.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:51 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
John,
Yes, the first job is the hardest to get.
But I'm all in favor of grandmothers getting online.
If that was your experience, I'd ask you:
Why AOL?
How does she "get online"?
What does she do online?
Can you talk me through a problem she had that you helped her solve?
If all you've got is a bunch of classes, you'll have to help me understand how that applies. The lousiest programmers I ever knew were top level computer science students. (mind you, that program did produce good programmers, I'm just not sure it was the classes that made them better.) I think they were just squeaking through in hopes of getting a credential, but they made some rather rookie mistakes given how advanced their coursework was.
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 4:36 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
We'd have to know more specifics about your two friends. Most likely, it's a difference in experience. You get the first job, it gets you the second. The second job gets you the third. Well, unless you work for Will in which case helping your grandma get on-line gets you the job.
Just kidding, Will, it's a joke!
On 10/15/2015 04:03 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ...
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Now, what about the fact that most IT people are hobbiests on the side with Technology? I am! But all of this doesn't seem to shed that much light on why a person we know who is horrible with people is getting jobs in datacenters everywhere, and then my friend with the certification, not to mention, very good with people, teaching them, explaining stuff to them, trying to start a business, is getting nothing. Puzzling ... -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Will Estes Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:21 PM To: John G Heim Cc: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol. That guy helping his grandmother has: * shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems The person who just has a degree has: * drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money Which one is going to help the business more? On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Scott, It is a shame. But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors. In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed. Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing. On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
All, My points to add to the valuable discussion. A degree should be teaching you how to think, not the practical. The practical for someone going to Uni is via the method’s discussed here which are only some approaches. In Australia we have a colleague system called TAFE (Technical Adult Further Education). They are more practical focus then theory like a degree. Thus they come into the work force already with the abilities of doing entry work. At least this is the theory. My personal thoughts is that combination of both is required in the I.T professional. I like the concept of apprenticeship where the person goes to learn the theory and they work for someone to gain the practical. Thus the universities (Uni) can focus on the real theory to allow the person think. Rather then what some Uni’s to today. In relation to getting work, my experience is: 1. Degree assist you in getting work in other countries, other then your local country if you have that interest. 2. Large organisations use it as a means of weeding out entry positions. they treat it as a means of someone who can think and grow. Smaller organisations do not tend to focus on the degree’s or certifications, or the like. Rather they focus on your experience and can do attitude. They will use these qualifications as a guide. 3. Gaining experience in I.T really depends on the area of focus. If you want to be a programmer, then get out in th open source community. If you want to be a networker, then there are similar groups out there that you can volunteer for. If you want to be a desktop support person, then this is harder without demonstrating the ability. Setting up your own company helping other’s is one method. Working at a local community organisation is another. Selling and supporting gear is another. If you are seeking for other areas, then it is far harder as they want experienced people with some track of employment. 4. In the networking field I have found certification’s are very important. Not so in the administration or programming field. EG: Some telco’s will not look at someone if they don’t have a networking certification regularise of the experience. Note, this is from an Australian point of view. Sean
On 18 Oct 2015, at 12:30 am, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL?
Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP.
Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
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Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh! On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP. Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> > wrote: > > Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As > President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired > Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've > studied a great deal. More on that later in this message. > > If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of > setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best > to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to > overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. > A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight > unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't > even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, > you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. > That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a > lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager > here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses > (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't > interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. > The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even > be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP. > Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is > easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring > decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not > hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after > all. But far more important is that employers simply don't > understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers > assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to > replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the > million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. > In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people > can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best > of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of > extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not > discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job. > > Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a > personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook > huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most > important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like > you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, > some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big > part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual > clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you > made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead > somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they > need. > > Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with > some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. > And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is > your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is > involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a > little harder to improve your odds if you are blind. > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate. On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: > John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when > it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will > where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen > people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. > > I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities > would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field > on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has > asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. > > Interesting how these things Vary. > > >> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> >> wrote: >> >> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >> President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired >> Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something >> I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message. >> >> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many >> jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to >> employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like >> Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, >> Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any >> resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview >> everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The >> same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even >> be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, >> witho u t a CISSP. >> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could >> think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, >> there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive >> of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of >> intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of >> extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not >> discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job. >> >> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage >> there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the >> disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone >> is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the >> interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? >> Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered >> lives and just don't have the social skills they need. >> >> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only >> with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's >> just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of >> things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds >> if you are blind. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > -- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
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That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows: 1895 FINAL EXAM This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal. 8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865. Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth. Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish > yourself > from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have > experience. > No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree > after a > certain level. > > I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of > IAVIT, > I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are > a > gazillion people out there calling themselves information > technologists. > Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself > an IT > guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish > yourself > from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way > is to be > a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using > stone knives > and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy > who is > interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose > you're not a > genius? Suppose you're just above average? > > Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, > "Bachelors > in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? > That > basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of > want ads. > You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all > know, the > problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem > is so > familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and > University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want > experience but > how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" > > A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers > consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your > second > or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are > some > jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is > absolutely > required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market > if you > don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the > best in > the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers. > > > > On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it >> comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where >> a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with >> Harvard degrees get laughed at. >> >> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would >> demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my >> resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in >> 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. >> >> Interesting how these things Vary. >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>> President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired >>> Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've >>> studied a great deal. More on that later in this message. >>> >>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to >>> overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, >>> sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you >>> won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many >>> universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you >>> have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas >>> where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I >>> talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said >>> that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a >>> college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way >>> to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some >>> certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in >>> computer security, for example, witho > u > t a CISSP. >>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring >>> decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not >>> hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, >>> after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't >>> understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers >>> assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to >>> replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of >>> the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't >>> do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted >>> people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with >>> the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're >>> not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the >>> job. >>> >>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook >>> huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The >>> most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to >>> like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of >>> all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, >>> a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the >>> visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl >>> when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people >>> have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>> skills they need. >>> >>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only >>> with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just >>> harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How >>> good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of >>> luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have >>> to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> > -- > John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, > sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- Will Estes westes575@gmail.com
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There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote: > >> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >> yourself >> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? > Lol. > > That guy helping his grandmother has: > > * shown initiative > * demonstrated understanding of customer service > * helped non-technical users solve technical problems > > The person who just has a degree has: > > * drunk beer > * screwed around > * spent a lot of someone else's money > > Which one is going to help the business more? > > On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim > <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > >> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >> experience. >> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >> degree after a >> certain level. >> >> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >> of IAVIT, >> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >> are a >> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >> technologists. >> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >> himself an IT >> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >> distinguish yourself >> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >> way is to be >> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >> stone knives >> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >> guy who is >> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >> you're not a >> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >> >> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >> "Bachelors >> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >> required"? That >> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >> of want ads. >> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >> all know, the >> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >> problem is so >> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and >> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >> experience but >> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >> >> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >> managers >> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >> your second >> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >> are some >> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >> absolutely >> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >> market if you >> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >> the best in >> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >> employers. >> >> >> >> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>> >>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. >>> >>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>> this message. >>>> >>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>> security, for example, witho >> u >> t a CISSP. >>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>> can't do the job. >>>> >>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>> skills they need. >>>> >>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>> odds if you are blind. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> >> -- >> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > -- > Will Estes > westes575@gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote:
Scott,
It is a shame.
But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high schools to get everyone into college without helping students understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many other factors.
In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter.
On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed.
Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing.
On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote:
> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m > surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen > this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in > different environments but wow.:) > > >> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>> yourself >>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >> Lol. >> >> That guy helping his grandmother has: >> >> * shown initiative >> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >> >> The person who just has a degree has: >> >> * drunk beer >> * screwed around >> * spent a lot of someone else's money >> >> Which one is going to help the business more? >> >> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >> >>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>> experience. >>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>> degree after a >>> certain level. >>> >>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>> of IAVIT, >>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>> are a >>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>> technologists. >>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>> himself an IT >>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>> distinguish yourself >>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>> way is to be >>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>> stone knives >>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>> guy who is >>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>> you're not a >>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>> >>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>> "Bachelors >>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>> required"? That >>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>> of want ads. >>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>> all know, the >>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>> problem is so >>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech >>> and >>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>> experience but >>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>> >>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>> managers >>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>> your second >>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>> are some >>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>> absolutely >>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>> market if you >>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>> the best in >>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>> employers. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>> >>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume. >>>> >>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>> this message. >>>>> >>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>> security, for example, witho >>> u >>> t a CISSP. >>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>> can't do the job. >>>>> >>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>> skills they need. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>> >>> -- >>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> -- >> Will Estes >> westes575@gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
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Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't. I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, that would hurt blind people most of all. PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any rational person would believe that. On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote: > Scott, > > It is a shame. > > But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a > college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high > schools to get everyone into college without helping students > understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many > other factors. > > In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to > college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you > less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. > > On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create > your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using > Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that > the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are > ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, > and then, having done that, to get noticed. > > Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college > degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk > in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing. > > On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados > <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote: > >> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m >> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen >> this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in >> different environments but wow.:) >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>>> yourself >>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >>> Lol. >>> >>> That guy helping his grandmother has: >>> >>> * shown initiative >>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >>> >>> The person who just has a degree has: >>> >>> * drunk beer >>> * screwed around >>> * spent a lot of someone else's money >>> >>> Which one is going to help the business more? >>> >>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>>> experience. >>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>>> degree after a >>>> certain level. >>>> >>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>>> of IAVIT, >>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>>> are a >>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>>> technologists. >>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>>> himself an IT >>>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>>> distinguish yourself >>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>>> way is to be >>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>>> stone knives >>>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>>> guy who is >>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>>> you're not a >>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>>> >>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>>> "Bachelors >>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>>> required"? That >>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>>> of want ads. >>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>>> all know, the >>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>>> problem is so >>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT >>>> Tech and >>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>>> experience but >>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>>> >>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>>> managers >>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>>> your second >>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>>> are some >>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>>> absolutely >>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>>> market if you >>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>>> the best in >>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>>> employers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my >>>>> resume. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>>> this message. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>>> security, for example, witho >>>> u >>>> t a CISSP. >>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>>> can't do the job. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>>> skills they need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> -- >>> Will Estes >>> westes575@gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
Hi Guys, As interesting as this topic is, it is veering off the topic of sysadmin stuff. If we could try and keep it broadly on topic that would be fab. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 21 October 2015 15:24 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't. I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, that would hurt blind people most of all. PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any rational person would believe that. On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote: > Scott, > > It is a shame. > > But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements > imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The > push from high schools to get everyone into college without > helping students understand what sort of career path that should > lead to, and many other factors. > > In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to > college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells > you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. > > On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create > your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to > using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, > admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work > loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating > things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed. > > Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college > degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it > sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing. > > On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados > <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote: > >> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m >> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve >> seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in >> different environments but wow.:) >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>>> yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >>> Lol. >>> >>> That guy helping his grandmother has: >>> >>> * shown initiative >>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >>> >>> The person who just has a degree has: >>> >>> * drunk beer >>> * screwed around >>> * spent a lot of someone else's money >>> >>> Which one is going to help the business more? >>> >>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>>> experience. >>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>>> degree after a >>>> certain level. >>>> >>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>>> of IAVIT, >>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>>> are a >>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>>> technologists. >>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>>> himself an IT >>>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>>> distinguish yourself >>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>>> way is to be >>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>>> stone knives >>>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>>> guy who is >>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>>> you're not a >>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>>> >>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>>> "Bachelors >>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>>> required"? That >>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>>> of want ads. >>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>>> all know, the >>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>>> problem is so >>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT >>>> Tech and >>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>>> experience but >>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>>> >>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>>> managers >>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>>> your second >>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>>> are some >>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>>> absolutely >>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>>> market if you >>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>>> the best in >>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>>> employers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my >>>>> resume. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>>> this message. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>>> security, for example, witho >>>> u >>>> t a CISSP. >>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>>> can't do the job. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>>> skills they need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> -- >>> Will Estes >>> westes575@gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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I apologize for my posts. I shall remember, in future, not to veer far afield of the purpose of this list. Doing so was most inconsiderate to do. For which there is no excuse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <andrew@hodgsonfamily.org> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Hi Guys,
As interesting as this topic is, it is veering off the topic of sysadmin stuff. If we could try and keep it broadly on topic that would be fab.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 21 October 2015 15:24 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't.
I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, that would hurt blind people most of all.
PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any rational person would believe that.
On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
> Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with > too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing > I've ever heard. Sheesh! > > On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote: >> Scott, >> >> It is a shame. >> >> But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements >> imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The >> push from high schools to get everyone into college without >> helping students understand what sort of career path that should >> lead to, and many other factors. >> >> In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to >> college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells >> you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. >> >> On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create >> your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to >> using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, >> admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work >> loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating >> things that help people, and then, having done that, to get >> noticed. >> >> Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college >> degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it >> sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when >> interviewing. >> >> On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados >> <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote: >> >>> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m >>> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve >>> seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in >>> different environments but wow.:) >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>>>> yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >>>> Lol. >>>> >>>> That guy helping his grandmother has: >>>> >>>> * shown initiative >>>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >>>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >>>> >>>> The person who just has a degree has: >>>> >>>> * drunk beer >>>> * screwed around >>>> * spent a lot of someone else's money >>>> >>>> Which one is going to help the business more? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>>>> experience. >>>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>>>> degree after a >>>>> certain level. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>>>> of IAVIT, >>>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>>>> are a >>>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>>>> technologists. >>>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>>>> himself an IT >>>>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>>>> distinguish yourself >>>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>>>> way is to be >>>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>>>> stone knives >>>>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>>>> guy who is >>>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>>>> you're not a >>>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>>>> >>>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>>>> "Bachelors >>>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>>>> required"? That >>>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>>>> of want ads. >>>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>>>> all know, the >>>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>>>> problem is so >>>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT >>>>> Tech and >>>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>>>> experience but >>>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>>>> >>>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>>>> managers >>>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>>>> your second >>>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>>>> are some >>>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>>>> absolutely >>>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>>>> market if you >>>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>>>> the best in >>>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>>>> employers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my >>>>>> resume. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>>>> this message. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>>>> security, for example, witho >>>>> u >>>>> t a CISSP. >>>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>>>> can't do the job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>>>> skills they need. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>> -- >>>> Will Estes >>>> westes575@gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
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Hi Guys, As interesting as this topic is, it is veering off the topic of sysadmin stuff. If we could try and keep it broadly on topic that would be fab. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim Sent: 21 October 2015 15:24 To: Blind sysadmins list <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't. I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, that would hurt blind people most of all. PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any rational person would believe that. On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Sheesh!
On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote: > Scott, > > It is a shame. > > But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements > imposing a college degree for jobs where it's not required. The > push from high schools to get everyone into college without > helping students understand what sort of career path that should > lead to, and many other factors. > > In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to > college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells > you less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. > > On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create > your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to > using Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, > admitting that the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work > loads done, there are ways to gain experience and start creating > things that help people, and then, having done that, to get noticed. > > Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college > degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it > sunk in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when interviewing. > > On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados > <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote: > >> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m >> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve >> seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in >> different environments but wow.:) >> >> >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>>> yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >>> Lol. >>> >>> That guy helping his grandmother has: >>> >>> * shown initiative >>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >>> >>> The person who just has a degree has: >>> >>> * drunk beer >>> * screwed around >>> * spent a lot of someone else's money >>> >>> Which one is going to help the business more? >>> >>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>>> experience. >>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>>> degree after a >>>> certain level. >>>> >>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>>> of IAVIT, >>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>>> are a >>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>>> technologists. >>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>>> himself an IT >>>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>>> distinguish yourself >>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>>> way is to be >>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>>> stone knives >>>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>>> guy who is >>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>>> you're not a >>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>>> >>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>>> "Bachelors >>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>>> required"? That >>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>>> of want ads. >>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>>> all know, the >>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>>> problem is so >>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT >>>> Tech and >>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>>> experience but >>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>>> >>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>>> managers >>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>>> your second >>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>>> are some >>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>>> absolutely >>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>>> market if you >>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>>> the best in >>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>>> employers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my >>>>> resume. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>>> this message. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>>> security, for example, witho >>>> u >>>> t a CISSP. >>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>>> can't do the job. >>>>>> >>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>>> skills they need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> -- >>> Will Estes >>> westes575@gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >> _______________________________________________ >> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
I am sorry you feel my beliefs are incredible. I wasn't aware this was a debate, per se. Rather i was offering an opinion, with as many sources to back what I say as possible. We all have opinions, and I am welcome to mine. Regardless how incredible you feel it to be. But, if you read all the complaints on the various lists about the difficulty of finding employment for blind applicants, the conclusion is not difficult to draw. If you read, also, the economy is dire, and that unemployment statistics are so high among sighted job applicants. Is it any wonder the more competition we face as blind job applicants restricts our employment prospects further than it might with less competition from sighted aplicants. When I graduated from University, and prior, there were blind attorneys. I went to school with a blind black man, and racial discrimination was more blatant then than it seems to be now. Though, should you ask my black sighted children, it still exists. Who became a well respect attorney in my city. So, then, it was understood, the cream of blind students rose to higher academic levels. Regardless the lack of assistance and the discouragement from those sighted around them. An example coming to mind immediately is that of doctor Jacob Bolotin https://nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm08/bm0801/bm080105.htm "Growing up in Chicago, Rosalind Perlman had heard about the blind doctor, known throughout her city and around the world. When she married Alfred Perlman, she learned much more. Alfred and his mother (Jacob Bolotin's sister) had lived with the renowned doctor for a significant part of Perlman's childhood and adolescence. To him the legendary blind doctor was an uncle, a father, a hero. It is thanks to the Perlmans that his story has finally been told and, in reading it, it is hard to know which is more remarkable: the life of Jacob Bolotin or the fact that it has been such hidden history for so long. If you've ever wondered how blind people managed before there were talking computers or Braille notetakers or offices for students with disabilities, Dr. Bolotin's story will require that you stretch your imagination much, much further than, say, my own memories of schlepping a portable typewriter across campus to take an exam. Jacob Bolotin, who would become the first congenitally blind person to attend medical school and be a licensed physician in this country, was born in 1888. That means, in other words, that he was learning to read in the nineteenth century. It means that he lived in a time before we had programs to teach blind people cane travel, before we had tape recorders or Perkins Braillers or talking books. What he did have was a strong and loving family, a superb intellect, and a cache of perseverance rarely witnessed. Bolotin's parents were Jewish immigrants from Poland. Jacob was the seventh child in the family and the third of those seven to be born blind. He and his brother Fred were taken to the state school for the blind in Illinois (interestingly, no mention is made of any education for their blind sister). Perlman characterizes Bolotin as not only an excellent student, but one with extraordinarily heightened senses�reading Braille through three handkerchiefs, for example, and recognizing other people by smell. The real story begins, however, after his valedictorian speech and graduation from the school at age fourteen. With his own improvised cane travel techniques, Bolotin traveled the network of streetcars throughout Chicago, selling first brushes, and later typewriters. At sixteen he was called into the president's office to be congratulated for being one of the best typewriter salesmen in the company. His brilliance as a physician, however, was recognized by patients and other physicians long before he took his rightful place in the medical community. Even after working for months as a volunteer physician in a facility for tuberculosis patients, he was not hired by that institution. Patients loved him, and doctors frequently called upon him for consultation, but his blindness was repeatedly waved as an excuse for not paying him for his services. Eventually, however, Dr. Jacob Bolotin grew to be a renowned heart and lung specialist, not only throughout Chicago, but in places around the world. When he addressed a medical convention as a favor to a friend, his talent for speaking also became legendary. Reading excerpts from his speeches is astonishing. The philosophy and sentiments are in complete accord with the words of leaders in the blindness movement almost a century later. Listen, for instance, to his comments as quoted in the Chicago Tribune, when that newspaper ran a sensational article about the blind man about to become a licensed physician: "Well, is there anything so remarkable about it? Because a man has no eyes, is it any sign that he hasn't any brains? That is the trouble with the world and the blind man. All the blind man asks is fair play. Give him an equal chance without prejudice, and he generally manages to hold his own with his more fortunate colleagues." Jacob Bolotin died in 1924, at the young age of thirty-six. He seems to have literally worked himself to death--maintaining such a rigorous schedule of seeing patients and giving speeches that his body wore out. Five thousand people came to his funeral--and yet, were it not for a loving nephew and his wife, Alfred and Rosalind Perlman, Dr. Bolotin's story might well have been lost to us all. By the way, there isn't a thing wrong with piano tuning." Just the other week, one of the students for whom I work at our local community college was requesting where he might find a competent piano tuner. Such are rare these days. In the 1930's to the 1950's, though you might not like to read it, my late husbands totally blind black aunt, who sold sundries on the streets of the city in which I live, made enough money to hire a permanent sighted companion. To read to her, and to drive, and to do other things necessary for her to be successful as a blind woman living in the midst of the "great depression". When there weren't government supports under girding our successful achievement. doctor Helen Keller hired Anne Sullivan, or was otherwise directly responsible for her support long before there was government assistance for us blind people to exist. Early 20th century blind recording artists, such as Blind Lemon Jefferson, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Lemon_Jefferson also did quite well for themselves. Employing sighted people to do for them what, in most cases, is done for us by technology. Also, how much work, which is outsourced to other countries, such as the manufacturing of the I-Phones carried by many blind people is made using methods previously employed by sheltered workshops. for just about the same wage which use to be paid to sheltered workshop workers in days gone by. There are not many blind people disparaging the employment of people for slave wages refusing to use a device proudly marked, "made in China". So such employment should not be spoken of disparagingly. Not when the modern individual employment plan for blind job seekers drawn by rehabilitation counselors eliminates altogether the word "gainful" employment from the document drawn. Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
Angel, when fewer Americans went to college, fewer *blind* Americans went to college. Sure, maybe it was better for the few blind people who went to college but it was way worse for the vast majority who didn't.
I can't believe I even have to explain this. The fact that it's easier to get into college has been a huge boon for blind people, not a detriment. It means most of us can start professional careers instead of tuning pianos or working in a sheltered workshop. We may not be able to compete for jobs as bus drivers, fireman, and house painters but we can compete for jobs as computer programmers, lawyers, and even medical doctors. Even if we could turn back the clock and make it harder to get into college, that would hurt blind people most of all.
PS: You seem to think our society would be better off if it was harder to get into college. You don't seriously believe that, do you? I mean, it's not relevant to this debate or to this email list but I can't believe any rational person would believe that.
On 10/21/2015 06:30 AM, Angel wrote:
I never said blind people shouldn't go to college. I said, because there is a glut of college graduates, and because college provosts feel to maintain their colleges, lower standards for the obtaining of those degrees must follow. To accommodate those with lesser academic proficiencies to graduate successfully. To get the grants and loans issuing from government and other lending institutions. It can't be automatically assumed graduates with lower degrees are as accomplished as they use to be. That is why higher degrees are required now to do the same jobs which use to be done by those with lower degrees or no degrees at all. Now people with post graduate degrees are required to do those same jobs persons with under graduate degrees did most adequately 50 years ago. My second grade teacher herself never attended high school, and none of my teachers through high school had more than an under graduate degree. I was in the final class she taught prior to her mandatory retirement. She was Robert Irwin's teaching apprentice. I believe she began teaching under his tutelage when she was 16 years old in 1910. Now, in order to teach second grade blind students one must at least have a masters degree; and in future, I suspect the credentials will increase to a doctorate degree to teach the mere basics to second grade students. This is why it can't be naturally assumed people holding under graduate degrees now are competent, whether they be sighted or blind, simply because they hold degrees, and why employment for us is becoming more difficult than it was. In days past, if a blind person succeeded in graduating from an institution of higher learning, coupled with his blindness automatically spoke of his intelligence and resourcefulness. Because there were no student disability services for challenged people beginning at the high school level, it could be assumed by employers we already came to the employment interview with the advocacy, and problem solving skills necessary to solve whatever problems were given us. Else we wouldn't have the degree in the first place. If just anyone who can get a grant or loan can graduate almost, what does that say about us with challenges who graduate from the same institutions? Which is why we have to go to such effort to prove our job worthiness to potential employers. Who, perhaps, aren't so impressed with the degree we bring to them. Blind people have always matriculated at the most prestigious universities. It has been so since Robert B Irwin graduated from Harvard. With so many sighted college graduates competing for the same jobs as are blind graduates, how are we blind job seekers to demonstrate we are especially suited for the placement? When I graduated nearly a half century ago, when there was no affirmative action and other assists to give us challenged persons advantage, we impressed employers simply because we were successful graduates. Also, there were fewer college graduates competing for the types of employment we sought.----- Original Message ----- From: "John G Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
There are so many logical flaws in this message, it's hard to know where to start. But in order to try to keep it readable, I'm just going to point out that your basic point is a non-sequitur. Academic standards were higher 100 years ago, therefore blind people shouldn't bother going to college? It makes no sense. Even if the premise is true, and I don't think it is, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
On 10/19/2015 10:46 PM, Angel wrote:
That is my point exactly. If all are expected to make themselves serfs to the government or financial institutions providing for them college loans, upwards of 50 thousand dollars annually, how are high academic standards to be maintained. As not all students are capable of maintaining such standards. Even the modern SAT scores are lower than they were a half century ago. When I took the college entrance exam. There was a time, perhaps a century and a half ago now, when an eighth grade education was the only academic requirement to get along in the society of that day. After that grade was completed all further education only expanded upon, and improved upon the basic knowledge required to live a productive life. Now days such isn't achieved till one receives what passes these days for an under graduate degree in most colleges and universities. President Truman only had a high school education. How many people graduating from high school these days could even hope to become president of the United States, and to be sponsored by wealthy patrons. It can't be done today without at least a post graduate degree or two. Even Donald Trump has an under graduate degree, and he isn't even president yet. When high school diplomas were rarer than they are today, and there were fewer visual distractions, literacy was of better quality than it is today. An example of an average 1895 eighth grade examination to prove my point follows. If it were updated to reflect the modern technological advances of today, how many college graduates would be able to pass it I ask? Without the internet to assist them every step of the way. There was no internet in 1895. The more technology there is available to us, the stupider seem to me to be our young people. The exam also shows how brilliant and marvelous were those people such as Thomas Jefferson , E.B. White, Whom we each have to thank for his editing of the little book authored by Roger Strunk, "Elements Of Style". Which teaches so succinctly the basics of grammar. From which we were each so fortunate to learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White The totally blind Robert Irwin. Who created, and developed the idea of mainstreaming blind students in modern classrooms. Graduating from Harvard long before there were student accessibility offices in every community college in the country. http://www.aph.org/hall/inductees/irwin/Etc. and doctor Helen Keller. Who was the first Deaf-Blind young lady to graduate from Wellesley. For that matter, how many totally blind youth graduating from Colleges or Universities today could match the achievements of a Louis Braille. Who developed a system of reading and writing which revolutionized the lives of blind people the world over. Remember, he accomplished and perfected his system of writing and reading when he was only 16 years old inn 1825. Or an Abraham Nemeth. Who revolutionized Braille mathematic notation for the totally blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Nemeth Even with their fancy degrees to speak for them. Which proves my point further that the quality of today's education both for the blind and sighted student, and potential employee is lesser than it was decades ago. Which harms us blind job seekers more than it does sighted ones. Because our choices of employment are somewhat dictated by our lack of physical sight. While, at the same time, our academic prowess suffers to a degree commensurate with our sighted peers. If everyone weren't required or expected to put themselves in penury to achieve a college education, and more room were left without stigma to get equivalent vocational educations, It would be financially better for those graduating from such vocational schools, and would improve the quality of students graduating from Universities or Colleges. The more wide spread and accessible we make higher education, the lower is its quality. Because the requisites aren't met by those graduating from the lower levels of academe. Because with today's attitudes toward the equalization of us all, whether that equality is deserved or it isn't, standards are lowered all the way around. The eighth grade exam follows:
1895 FINAL EXAM
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters. 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 5. Define case; illustrate each case. 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for pri ncipal marks of punctuation. 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes) 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for taref? 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals? 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre? 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods? 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas . 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe? 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour) [ 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthograp hy, etymology, syllabication 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule. 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup. 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4. Describe the mountains of North America 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco .. 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each. 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers. 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
By that logic, we should discourage people from going to high school. After all, if everyone has a high school degree, it makes it harder for high school graduates to get jobs. While we're at it, lets try to do away with the country's high literacy rate. If everyone can read, it makes it harder for those of us who can read to get jobs. Actually, the USA doesn't even have a particularly high literacy rate.
On 10/19/2015 06:43 AM, Angel wrote:
When too many people go to college, the degrees obtained are cheapened. Because standards are lowered to accommodate those who, in decades and centuries past, would never have qualified for a college degree. That is why in days past, there were more vocational schools available for those less well qualified to obtain higher degrees, and there was less stigma for those attending vocational schools. Jobs are fewer as well for degreed people. As there are more graduates seeking them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ...
> Will, the United States of America does not have a problem with too > many people going to college. That is the stupidest thing I've ever > heard. Sheesh! > > On 10/17/2015 08:30 AM, Will Estes wrote: >> Scott, >> >> It is a shame. >> >> But, it's happened for a lot of reasons. HR requirements imposing a >> college degree for jobs where it's not required. The push from high >> schools to get everyone into college without helping students >> understand what sort of career path that should lead to, and many >> other factors. >> >> In an ironic turn, it's just that so many people have gone to >> college that, simply knowing someone has gone to college tells you >> less than it used to. Because it's less of a filter. >> >> On the other hand, having the 'net where it's so easy to create >> your own content -- everything from commenting in forums to using >> Amazon's AWS free tier to get real (that is not toy, admitting that >> the free tier is small, notwithstanding) work loads done, there are >> ways to gain experience and start creating things that help people, >> and then, having done that, to get noticed. >> >> Also, when I was on a team where we either didn't have college >> degrees or none of us had degrees in the computing field, it sunk >> in that college was not a helpful filter to apply when >> interviewing. >> >> On Saturday, 17 October 2015, 9:03 am +0000, Scott Granados >> <scott@granados-llc.net> wrote: >> >>> Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m >>> surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen >>> this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in >>> different environments but wow.:) >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish >>>>> yourself >>>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? >>>> Lol. >>>> >>>> That guy helping his grandmother has: >>>> >>>> * shown initiative >>>> * demonstrated understanding of customer service >>>> * helped non-technical users solve technical problems >>>> >>>> The person who just has a degree has: >>>> >>>> * drunk beer >>>> * screwed around >>>> * spent a lot of someone else's money >>>> >>>> Which one is going to help the business more? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim >>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have >>>>> experience. >>>>> No one would dispute that experience is more important than a >>>>> degree after a >>>>> certain level. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President >>>>> of IAVIT, >>>>> I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There >>>>> are a >>>>> gazillion people out there calling themselves information >>>>> technologists. >>>>> Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers >>>>> himself an IT >>>>> guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to >>>>> distinguish yourself >>>>> from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another >>>>> way is to be >>>>> a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using >>>>> stone knives >>>>> and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the >>>>> guy who is >>>>> interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose >>>>> you're not a >>>>> genius? Suppose you're just above average? >>>>> >>>>> Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, >>>>> "Bachelors >>>>> in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience >>>>> required"? That >>>>> basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot >>>>> of want ads. >>>>> You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we >>>>> all know, the >>>>> problem is getting that experience in the first place. This >>>>> problem is so >>>>> familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT >>>>> Tech and >>>>> University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want >>>>> experience but >>>>> how can I get experience if I don't have a job?" >>>>> >>>>> A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT >>>>> managers >>>>> consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By >>>>> your second >>>>> or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there >>>>> are some >>>>> jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is >>>>> absolutely >>>>> required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job >>>>> market if you >>>>> don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of >>>>> the best in >>>>> the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action >>>>> employers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote: >>>>>> John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when >>>>>> it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will >>>>>> where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen >>>>>> people with Harvard degrees get laughed at. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities >>>>>> would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education >>>>>> field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody >>>>>> has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my >>>>>> resume. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting how these things Vary. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim >>>>>>> <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As >>>>>>> President of the International Association Of Visually >>>>>>> Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is >>>>>>> something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in >>>>>>> this message. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of >>>>>>> setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is >>>>>>> best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it >>>>>>> to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it >>>>>>> depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job >>>>>>> offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of >>>>>>> jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a >>>>>>> degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for >>>>>>> many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down >>>>>>> to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities >>>>>>> (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in >>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses >>>>>>> (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She >>>>>>> can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down >>>>>>> the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. >>>>>>> You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer >>>>>>> security, for example, witho >>>>> u >>>>> t a CISSP. >>>>>>> Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is >>>>>>> easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a >>>>>>> hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate >>>>>>> reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble >>>>>>> configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that >>>>>>> employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind >>>>>>> technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind >>>>>>> technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's >>>>>>> not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they >>>>>>> could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my >>>>>>> experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people >>>>>>> can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the >>>>>>> best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met >>>>>>> dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think >>>>>>> they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person >>>>>>> can't do the job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a >>>>>>> personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will >>>>>>> overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like >>>>>>> him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the >>>>>>> interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a >>>>>>> disadvantage there. First of all, some people are >>>>>>> uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of >>>>>>> hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues >>>>>>> they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you >>>>>>> made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have >>>>>>> lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social >>>>>>> skills they need. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and >>>>>>> only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, >>>>>>> it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot >>>>>>> of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social >>>>>>> skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job >>>>>>> and you might have to work a little harder to improve your >>>>>>> odds if you are blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, >>>>> sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>>> -- >>>> Will Estes >>>> westes575@gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blind-sysadmins mailing list >>> Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org >>> https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins > > _______________________________________________ > Blind-sysadmins mailing list > Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org > https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins >
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-- John Heim, jheim@math.wisc.edu, 608-263-4189, skype:john.g.heim, sip:jheim@sip.linphone.org
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Yeah, that was my reaction too. Wow. But personal opinions aside, the fact is that employers usually get way more applications than they have jobs. Most employers are not going to put much stock in something like helping your grandma get on line. If you volunteer to teach computer use at the local seniour center, that would help -- no question. But is that alone going to get you a job? Probably not. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, I talk to blind people all the time who love playing with computers and want to make it a career. I'm all for it. Heck, this is why I helped create IAVIT in the first place. But enjoying playing with computers just doesn't make you special. A lot of people like playing with computers. The biggest problem I have with Will's post is that it misses the point. I think it's ludicrous to argue that helping your grandma get on-line makes you more qualified than a a BS degree in Comp Sci. But that issue asside, every employer gets dozens of resumes for each job opening from people who worked part time in IT and want to make it a career. The last time my department had a job opening that did not require a degree, we got 34 applications. The last time we had an opening for a job that did require a degree, 5. For the job that did not require a degree, we immediately whittled the 34 applications down to 11 people to do phone interviews with and then to 3 to interview in person. For the other job, we interviewed 2. And this is in one of the most highly educated cities in the world. The point is that for the job that did not require a degree, your odds of even getting a call back were only one in three. Your odds of getting an interview, one in eleven. As a blind person, do you really want to face those kinds of odds? You're already at a disadvantage because of your disability. You're already hoping to find that one employer who won't reject you out of hand because he assumes blind people can't do X, Y, and Z. Ideally, what you want is the perfect resume. By all means, volunteer at the local seniour center. But get that dgree too. On 10/17/2015 04:03 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
Wow, speaking as someone who didn’t go the college route, I’m surprised how devalued a college education has gotten. I’ve seen this myself elsewhere and again realize it’s different in different environments but wow.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Will Estes <westes575@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Lol.
That guy helping his grandmother has:
* shown initiative * demonstrated understanding of customer service * helped non-technical users solve technical problems
The person who just has a degree has:
* drunk beer * screwed around * spent a lot of someone else's money
Which one is going to help the business more?
On Thursday, 15 October 2015, 2:06 pm -0500, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Scott, you're talking about higher level jobs. You already have experience. No one would dispute that experience is more important than a degree after a certain level.
I'm not going entirely by my own experience here. As President of IAVIT, I've talked to many HR people and IT managers about this. There are a gazillion people out there calling themselves information technologists. Every guy who ever helped his grandma get on AOL considers himself an IT guy. If you don't have a degree, how are you going to distinguish yourself from that guy who helped his grandma get on AOL? Sure, another way is to be a genius. Show them how you once built a mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins. But, first of all, now you're counting on the guy who is interviewing you to understand the difference. Second, suppose you're not a genius? Suppose you're just above average?
Why do you think so many job advertizements say something like, "Bachelors in Comp Sci or related field or relevant work experience required"? That basic phrasing should be familiar to anyone who has read a lot of want ads. You can over come it with enough experience but as I'm sure we all know, the problem is getting that experience in the first place. This problem is so familiar to people searching for jobs that places like ITT Tech and University Of Phoenix feature it in their ads. "They want experience but how can I get experience if I don't have a job?"
A degree is never completely irrelevant. As I said, some IT managers consider a degree a sign of a certain level of seriousness. By your second or third job, it probably won't matter but it might. Plus, there are some jobs, like those at universities, where having a degree is absolutely required. Why would you eliminate an entire sector of the job market if you don't have to? Especially since jobs in education are some of the best in the entire IT sector. They are usually affirmative action employers.
On 10/15/2015 12:50 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, that’s interesting, I’ve found the absolute opposite when it comes to education. My experience more mirrors that of Will where a college education is almost a hinderance. I’ve seen people with Harvard degrees get laughed at.
I suppose it depends on the job. I can see why universities would demand such a thing. I don’t even have an education field on my resume although I do have a certs section. Nobody has asked me in 10 years why I don’t have a college on my resume.
Interesting how these things Vary.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:56 AM, John G Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Okay, first, I'll talk about degrees versus certifications. As President of the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists, the difference being blind makes is something I've studied a great deal. More on that later in this message.
If you ask about degrees versus certifications, you're kind of setting up a false dichotomy. The obvious answer is that it is best to have both. So the real question is how difficult is it to overcome not having a college degree? The answer is that it depends. A person with a Ph.D in Math will get several job offers, sight unseen. On the other hand, there are a lot of jobs where you won't even be considered if you don't have a degree. At many universities, you simply don't qualify for many jobs unless you have a degree. That tends to trickle down to employers in areas where there are a lot of universities (like Massachusetts). I talked to an HR manager here in Madison, Wisconsin, and she said that she simply tosses (deletes) any resumes that don't show a college degree. She can't interview everybody and it's an easy way to whittle down the field. The same thing can be true for some certifications. You won't even be considered for some jobs in computer security, for example, witho u t a CISSP. Now, regarding being blind ... My opinion is that blindness is easily the #1 factor that employers consider when making a hiring decision. First of all, there are some legitimate reasons for not hiring a blind person. We do have trouble configuring a BIOS, after all. But far more important is that employers simply don't understand the capabilities of blind technologists. Many managers assume, for example, that a blind technologist wouldn't be able to replace a hard drive. If it's not a hard drive, it's another of the million things they could think of that they'd assume we can't do. In my experience, there is no limit to the things sighted people can't conceive of doing without vision. Even managers with the best of intentions are vulnerable to this problem. I've met dozens of extremely kind, open minded managers who think they're not discriminating, it's just that a blind person can't do the job.
Another problem is that hiring is almost always about making a personal connection with the interviewer. Managers will overlook huge flaws in a person's qualifications if they like him. The most important thing in an interview is getting the interviewer to like you and a blind person is at a disadvantage there. First of all, some people are uncomfortable around the disabled. Secondly, a big part of hitting it off with someone is picking up on the visual clues they are giving. Did the interviewer smile or scowl when you made that little joke? Finally, a lot of blind people have lead somewhat sheltered lives and just don't have the social skills they need.
Of course, being blind only puts you at a disadvantage and only with some employers. It's not impossible to find a job, it's just harder. And how much harder it is depends on a lot of things. How good is your resume? How good are your social skills? A lot of luck is involved for anyone looking for a job and you might have to work a little harder to improve your odds if you are blind.
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So here’s been my experience. It is entire about experience and what you’ve done. Certifications are nice but you’ll run in to some who question why you weren’t working and taking certifications instead of make money. I’ve found this to be more the case on the west coast. Certs are thought of more favorably on the east coast. It’s all about the experience though. Where did you come from, what have you done, what gear and you also need a real strong ability to communicate and sell your self. Blindness hasn’t been much of a factor in my recent job searches other than folks want to know how you do things but they ask intelligent questions and I bring my laptop with me to demonstrate. Know the material cold. Nothing puts off an interviewer like someone guessing. Also, if you can work with a great recruiter. I have one I work with in Boston who places me in some wonderful positions including my recent one at Fidelity. Nice to see Mass represented btw.:)
On Oct 15, 2015, at 9:43 AM, Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@gordon.edu> wrote:
Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different field with zero certifications?) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hello Katherine There is no easy answer, however a disability will come into play at times. Although I am blind and have interviewed several candidates for various positions I have never had a person with a vision impairment apply for any with may be one exception. In that specific circumstance the job required preparing and delivering presentations to various levels of managers and directors in the organisation. This person had no experience in using power point or any other tools to prepare and deliver presentations. Although that was not the entire job, it was a significant part of it. I had no say in the screening process, therefore I don't know how HR let the person get that far into the process. Talk about raising someone's expectations. As for all other positions, I will be honest and say that we often look for the best fit. By the time a candidate makes it to me, they have met the essential qualifications and most of the preferred ones. As for the technical skills usually when it is an entry level position or someone from one of the various student programs I am not too concern about what skills they bring. I can teach the technical stuff. What I cannot teach an employee is how to get along and interact with people. What I do is ask the candidates to show up at least half an hour before the interview. They then get a copy of the questions, because I am not there to trick them I want to learn what they know. I will talk to the people in reception to get their opinions on how the person was when coming in. And like it or not, we live in a visual world. For example, during one interview someone showed up in a 1960s style workout clothes, sweat pants and a sweat top, called a wind cheater in some cultures. Although we don't expect people to wear a suit and tie or business suits in the case of women, people expect that a candidate shows up looking like they are interested. No matter what this person said during the interview the sighted people on the board couldn't get passed the fact that they showed up looking like they got out of bed. Also during another one, the person made a huge error in grammar and spelling in their cover letter. People on the board couldn't overlook that error, because they felt the person didn't take the time to review what they submitted. If the job is technical I want to know how a person thinks when it comes to resolving a problem. This can involve a simple question like a person calls and tells you that they are not able to print. Often the simplest solution is the answer, no paper in the printer, the printer is not switched on etc. If the person jumps to something like deleting and recreating the queue, that tells volumes about their problem solving abilities and experience. As a blind person I have to work against stereotypes. I try to be as low maintenance as possible. I don't ask for accommodations just for the sake of having the latest and greatest in technology. If a screen reader is all I need I will not ask for a scanner and a Braille display. This requires knowing what I need to do to get the job done and what tools I need to get that job done. I work on my mobility. I learn how to get to and from the coffee room, washrooms, transit stops etc. In my personal experience the more independent I am the easier it is to have people help me when I need it. I found this is also true when travelling. It appears as if a person sees I am getting around on my own and ask a question there isn't a long term commitment on their part to offer assistance. An example of this is we have an extensive indoor network connecting a huge portion of downtown. If I get disoriented and ask for directions, I don't ask for help to get to my final destination. I ask for a point along the way that isn't too far out. This network can cover up to at least 16 city blocks and I use it extensively, especially in the winter. The bottom line is there is no easy answer. As for the vision impaired community the only thing I can offer is to be employment ready. Don't under estimate the value of personal grooming, make sure a person knows how to format Word or Email documents so they are visually appealing, take time to work on mobility etc. Vic -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 08:44 To: 'blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org' Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] question for the managers ... Hey all, Opinions would be great on this ... which is more powerful in hiring decisions in the IT community these days? (Especially in Massachusetts.) I have a college degree, though it's in English, so I highly doubt it was even considered when I got my helpdesk job here. Someone I know who has no college degree, no IT or industry certifications, and he's sitting here getting all the jobs he wants, while meanwhile, I know someone more talented, not to mention, better at what he does, who's been trying for years to get a job, he's got a certification, and not getting callbacks at all, even though he'd be more than qualified for what he's applying for. You think it's the blindness VS sighted battle again? Or do you think it's college VS no college education? (though correct me if I am mistaken, though aren't certifications nearly as powerful and authoritative as college degrees, especially when you've got someone like me working in IT with a college degree in an entirely different fie ld with zero certifications?) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org https://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
participants (9)
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Andrew Hodgson -
Angel -
John G Heim -
John G. Heim
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Katherine Moss -
Scott Granados -
Sean Murphy -
vic.pereira＠ssc-spc.gc.ca -
Will Estes