Hi, While I'm not currently using SSCM 2012, I'd be happy to throw into a pot if it would make my life easier down the line. Barry. -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: 05 February 2013 09:14 To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio No major difference. I am able to navigate the treeview for collections. Are there a few users of SCCM 2012 on this list? Maybe we could collectively pay for a script writer to make this a little easier to navigate using Jaws? Any thought's? Regards Darragh Hiligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: Andrew Hodgson To: "Blind sysadmins list (blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org)" , Date: 04/02/2013 23:37 Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins" Hi, I was quite persistent with FS about Jaws reading tree views in SQL Management Studio, and it seems that in the new JFW 14 they have addressed the issue, though I haven't checked this out as I am at home now and don't have an instance to play with. I would be interested if this fixes the issue with Systems Center as well, as I don't have ready access to that at work. Andrew. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas romhphoist an Oireachtais agus sanadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

Hello, Even though i don't make much use of sql management studio, i can confirm that the reading of treeviews is far more intuitive than previous releases. Regards, Chamandeep Singh On 2/5/13, Barry Toner wrote:

Hi,

While I'm not currently using SSCM 2012, I'd be happy to throw into a pot if it would make my life easier down the line.

Barry.

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: 05 February 2013 09:14 To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio

No major difference. I am able to navigate the treeview for collections.

Are there a few users of SCCM 2012 on this list? Maybe we could collectively pay for a script writer to make this a little easier to navigate using Jaws?

Any thought's?

Regards

Darragh Hiligh Fujitsu

Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie

From: Andrew Hodgson To: "Blind sysadmins list (blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org)" , Date: 04/02/2013 23:37 Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins"

Hi,

I was quite persistent with FS about Jaws reading tree views in SQL Management Studio, and it seems that in the new JFW 14 they have addressed the issue, though I haven't checked this out as I am at home now and don't have an instance to play with.

I would be interested if this fixes the issue with Systems Center as well, as I don't have ready access to that at work.

Andrew. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas romhphoist an Oireachtais agus sanadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

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Hi Darragh: We haven't upgraded to 2012 yet, I'd love to, but won't while the product's accessibility is still questionable. I think a script would go a long way to solving the issues, and I know my company would pay for it but I haven't asked yet because it wouldn't solve all of the issues. I meet every month with our TAM, and next month one of the System Center product managers will be on our call, but my understanding is there are several parts of the new system center UI, particularly in the ribbon and tool bars, that just don't fire off events so no screen reader can know that any thing happened. Also, several controls, such as some edit boxes, don't expose proper information either. I have an active CSS case with Microsoft on this, and what might help is if those of you using SCCM 2012 and running into problems contacted your Microsoft TAMs and added yourself to this case. I'll look up the case number, I don't have it on me right now. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:14 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio No major difference. I am able to navigate the treeview for collections. Are there a few users of SCCM 2012 on this list? Maybe we could collectively pay for a script writer to make this a little easier to navigate using Jaws? Any thought's? Regards Darragh H iligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: Andrew Hodgson To: "Blind sysadmins list (blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org)" , Date: 04/02/2013 23:37 Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins" Hi, I was quite persistent with FS about Jaws reading tree views in SQL Management Studio, and it seems that in the new JFW 14 they have addressed the issue, though I haven't checked this out as I am at home now and don't have an instance to play with. I would be interested if this fixes the issue with Systems Center as well, as I don't have ready access to that at work. Andrew. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas r omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

Hey Ryan, Unfortunately as I work in a rather large company, we have one TAM for quite a few contracts therefore nore I or anyone else in this building has access to him or her. Therefore my escalation path is quite long. Rightly or wrongly, I don't like my employer to be aware of the meriod of accessibility chalanges that I face in this role. I'm hoping to move further up the ranks eventually so I really cant afford the negative perception that this may create. Unfortunately this puts me at a disadvantage when trying to submit major accessibility issues to our software providers. Doing it without the backup of a big contract makes my voice very weak. I thought I had won a small victory about a year ago. I had asked that all new tendors include a high score for accessibility. The However, the very first application we put in this year is called Zenprise. It's an enterprise level mobile device management system. Cant you just guess what I'm going to say next? Yes! Our old friend Java is back in the house. Fortunately the front end is not Java based but the configuration of the server side is. This means that I should be able to perform most day to day administration tasks but if the server dies I'll never be able to rebuild it independently. Although the web front end is HTML based, there are a lot of unlabeled graphics and buttons. I can use the Jaws labeler to make some sense of these but if they change from version to version I'm not going to be in a very strong position. Mobile Device Management is going to be a really big thing in the next few years. Because I have shown a lot of committment to this company, I have been assured that I'll get main responsibility for this system. It's very frustrating to then find myself back in the usual position of trying to administer a partially accessible system yet again. Because, of course, I@ll go back to my earlier point, I don't want my employer to be aware of the incredibly difficult situation I am constantly in. I will shortly need to look for a new job. This place doesn't pay as well as most companies. Especially for the raft of responsibilities that I have. I am truthfully absolutely terrified at this prospect though. Much more so than I have ever been before. How can I realisticly go into an interview and tell them that I will perform at a level equal or better than other candidates. It is becoming an unrealistic ambition because of the lack of regard software developers are giving to accessibility. I keep making the point on this list but I think it's necessary to give people a very relistic idea of what the challanges are for blind system administrators. My perspective has completely changed in the past three years. I don't think it's the fault of assistive technology companies either. They can only do so much. I don't really think that any organization such as Iavit can make a difference either. Sorry to John, but that's my opinion at the moment. I have just had too many companies tell me that because I represent a fraction of their user base they could not justify the cost of paying a developer for the time it would take to correct their application. Companies that are a little more forward thinking have promised that it will be seriously looked at in a future version but you know as well as I do, their empty promises are about as useful to me now as a chocolate tea pot. Regards Darragh � H�iligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: Ryan Shugart To: Blind sysadmins list , Date: 05/02/2013 14:38 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins" Hi Darragh: We haven't upgraded to 2012 yet, I'd love to, but won't while the product's accessibility is still questionable. I think a script would go a long way to solving the issues, and I know my company would pay for it but I haven't asked yet because it wouldn't solve all of the issues. I meet every month with our TAM, and next month one of the System Center product managers will be on our call, but my understanding is there are several parts of the new system center UI, particularly in the ribbon and tool bars, that just don't fire off events so no screen reader can know that any thing happened. Also, several controls, such as some edit boxes, don't expose proper information either. I have an active CSS case with Microsoft on this, and what might help is if those of you using SCCM 2012 and running into problems contacted your Microsoft TAMs and added yourself to this case. I'll look up the case number, I don't have it on me right now. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [ mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:14 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio No major difference. I am able to navigate the treeview for collections. Are there a few users of SCCM 2012 on this list? Maybe we could collectively pay for a script writer to make this a little easier to navigate using Jaws? Any thought's? Regards Darragh H iligh Fujitsu Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie From: Andrew Hodgson To: "Blind sysadmins list (blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org)" , Date: 04/02/2013 23:37 Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins" Hi, I was quite persistent with FS about Jaws reading tree views in SQL Management Studio, and it seems that in the new JFW 14 they have addressed the issue, though I haven't checked this out as I am at home now and don't have an instance to play with. I would be interested if this fixes the issue with Systems Center as well, as I don't have ready access to that at work. Andrew. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas r omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais... _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas r�omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s�anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

I don't expect IAVIT to totally solve the problem. But I don't think it is unrealistic to think if we try, we can make a difference. First of all, most software developers are human beings. They have consionces. We can appeal to them on a humanitarian basis. But even more importantly, we can leverage regulations in the United States to our advantage. In the USA, government agencies are not supposed to buy inaccessible software. Admittedly, enforcing that is a huge problem. However, most software developers know they might be called on it someday. I think if we approach companies offering to help them solve a problem they are probably already at least somewhat aware of, they will listen. I don't think it is at all unrealistic to believe that. I think it would be crazy to admit defeat under these circumstances. This is not a pipe dream. On 2/5/2013 8:54 AM, Darragh OHeiligh wrote:

Hey Ryan,

Unfortunately as I work in a rather large company, we have one TAM for quite a few contracts therefore nore I or anyone else in this building has access to him or her. Therefore my escalation path is quite long.

Rightly or wrongly, I don't like my employer to be aware of the meriod of accessibility chalanges that I face in this role. I'm hoping to move further up the ranks eventually so I really cant afford the negative perception that this may create. Unfortunately this puts me at a disadvantage when trying to submit major accessibility issues to our software providers. Doing it without the backup of a big contract makes my voice very weak.

I thought I had won a small victory about a year ago. I had asked that all new tendors include a high score for accessibility. The However, the very first application we put in this year is called Zenprise. It's an enterprise level mobile device management system. Cant you just guess what I'm going to say next? Yes! Our old friend Java is back in the house. Fortunately the front end is not Java based but the configuration of the server side is. This means that I should be able to perform most day to day administration tasks but if the server dies I'll never be able to rebuild it independently. Although the web front end is HTML based, there are a lot of unlabeled graphics and buttons. I can use the Jaws labeler to make some sense of these but if they change from version to version I'm not going to be in a very strong position. Mobile Device Management is going to be a really big thing in the next few years. Because I have shown a lot of committment to this company, I have been assured that I'll get main responsibility for this system. It's very frustrating to then find myself back in the usual position of trying to administer a partially accessible system yet again. Because, of course, I@ll go back to my earlier point, I don't want my employer to be aware of the incredibly difficult situation I am constantly in.

I will shortly need to look for a new job. This place doesn't pay as well as most companies. Especially for the raft of responsibilities that I have. I am truthfully absolutely terrified at this prospect though. Much more so than I have ever been before. How can I realisticly go into an interview and tell them that I will perform at a level equal or better than other candidates. It is becoming an unrealistic ambition because of the lack of regard software developers are giving to accessibility.

I keep making the point on this list but I think it's necessary to give people a very relistic idea of what the challanges are for blind system administrators. My perspective has completely changed in the past three years.

I don't think it's the fault of assistive technology companies either. They can only do so much.

I don't really think that any organization such as Iavit can make a difference either. Sorry to John, but that's my opinion at the moment.

I have just had too many companies tell me that because I represent a fraction of their user base they could not justify the cost of paying a developer for the time it would take to correct their application.

Companies that are a little more forward thinking have promised that it will be seriously looked at in a future version but you know as well as I do, their empty promises are about as useful to me now as a chocolate tea pot.

Regards

Darragh � H�iligh Fujitsu

Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie

From: Ryan Shugart To: Blind sysadmins list , Date: 05/02/2013 14:38 Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins"

Hi Darragh: We haven't upgraded to 2012 yet, I'd love to, but won't while the product's accessibility is still questionable. I think a script would go a long way to solving the issues, and I know my company would pay for it but I haven't asked yet because it wouldn't solve all of the issues. I meet every month with our TAM, and next month one of the System Center product managers will be on our call, but my understanding is there are several parts of the new system center UI, particularly in the ribbon and tool bars, that just don't fire off events so no screen reader can know that any thing happened. Also, several controls, such as some edit boxes, don't expose proper information either. I have an active CSS case with Microsoft on this, and what might help is if those of you using SCCM 2012 and running into problems contacted your Microsoft TAMs and added yourself to this case. I'll look up the case number, I don't have it on me right now. Ryan

-----Original Message----- From: Blind-sysadmins [ mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh OHeiligh Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:14 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Cc: Blind-sysadmins Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio

No major difference. I am able to navigate the treeview for collections.

Are there a few users of SCCM 2012 on this list? Maybe we could collectively pay for a script writer to make this a little easier to navigate using Jaws?

Any thought's?

Regards

Darragh H iligh Fujitsu

Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 3559 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie

From: Andrew Hodgson To: "Blind sysadmins list (blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org)" , Date: 04/02/2013 23:37 Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Jaws/SQL Management Studio Sent by: "Blind-sysadmins"

Hi,

I was quite persistent with FS about Jaws reading tree views in SQL Management Studio, and it seems that in the new JFW 14 they have addressed the issue, though I haven't checked this out as I am at home now and don't have an instance to play with.

I would be interested if this fixes the issue with Systems Center as well, as I don't have ready access to that at work.

Andrew. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer...

Beartas r omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Oireachtas email policy and disclaimer. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/oireachtasemailpolicyanddisclaimer... Beartas r�omhphoist an Oireachtais agus s�anadh. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/ga/eolas/beartasriomhphoistanoireachtais...

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/listinfo/blind-sysadmins