Hello everyone: While the topics of commandlines and administration was still on everyone's mind, I wanted to throw a question out there. For those who primarily use the commandline for administration, be it Bash, Powershell, whatever, if you could wave a magic wand and have anything you wanted in a commandline interface, what would it be? In otherwords, what could someone do to make your commandline experience even better than it is today? For those of you who are primarily using the GUI for administration, what would make you shift more to the CLI? Thanks. Ryan Ryan Shugart Program Manager II, Cloud+Enterprise Accessibility Microsoft Corporation 425-705-1262
Hello Ryan,
I have had issues using PowerShell ISE with Jaws. Do you happen to know if this is something that FS needs to fix or is it for MS to work on?
Specifically my issues are with character reading using the left and right arrows and back spacing.
I like the intellysense provided by PowerShell ISE so would consider using it more regularly than the standard PowerShell client.
Also, the command list is shown by default however I don't seem to be able to get into it with the keyboard. When I manage to get into it, Jaws becomes very unresponsive and I am unable to read the contents.
There is one thing I really miss in the CLI. But I have no idea how it could be done. When outputting a command that displays columns, it would be really nice to be able to read those columns more efficiently. The optimal of course would be to have jaws table navigation but I really don't know how that would be done. Considering that the columns are just spaces.
Take something as simple as dir for example.
Another thing that I find a little challenging is copying the output of the screen. Yes, I could pipe the commands into a text file but sometimes you just want to copy and paste everything from the screen. This is fine if you don't need to scroll back but scrolling back can be hit and miss.
Regards
Darragh
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins
Sent: Friday 9 December 2016 00:53
To: Blind sysadmins list
I've noticed the same thing with ISE ... and cutting and pasting should be easier in Windows 10; isn't it set to our normal shortcut keystrokes by default now?
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2016 4:18 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
I've noticed the same thing with ISE ... and cutting and pasting should be easier in Windows 10; isn't it set to our normal shortcut keystrokes by default now?
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2016 4:18 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hello Darragh and Katherine:
We are aware of the Powershell ISE issues and many of them are on the MS end, we are working with the ISE team to determine next steps. At the moment this is only an option with the NVDA screen reader, but you may want to try using Visual Studio Code (its free) to edit Powershell.
Katherine, you are correct in that normal copy and paste commands are now available in Windows 10's console windows. However, if you switched back to the legacy console, which you may have done as some 3RD party screen readers do not yet support the newer console windows, you cannot use those commands.
The tables issue is very interesting and one that's causing a lot of conversation right now on my team. Do you export a lot of tabular output from Powershell to other formats such as HTML to read in a web browser? I don't believe Bash and other commandlines have this ability natively, how do other people work with tabular data in a command prompt today?
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 6:59 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hello Darragh and Katherine:
We are aware of the Powershell ISE issues and many of them are on the MS end, we are working with the ISE team to determine next steps. At the moment this is only an option with the NVDA screen reader, but you may want to try using Visual Studio Code (its free) to edit Powershell.
Katherine, you are correct in that normal copy and paste commands are now available in Windows 10's console windows. However, if you switched back to the legacy console, which you may have done as some 3RD party screen readers do not yet support the newer console windows, you cannot use those commands.
The tables issue is very interesting and one that's causing a lot of conversation right now on my team. Do you export a lot of tabular output from Powershell to other formats such as HTML to read in a web browser? I don't believe Bash and other commandlines have this ability natively, how do other people work with tabular data in a command prompt today?
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 6:59 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hi,
I copy tabular data to the clipboard and paste it into something else to work with it.
Andrew.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins
Sent: 09 December 2016 19:19
To: Blind sysadmins list
I too always export tabular data to either text or CSV ... not to mention, with the format-list or format-table cmdlet specified prior to the export. I have found the output seems to be all over the place without either cmdlet.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 3:52 PM
To: Blind sysadmins list
I too always export tabular data to either text or CSV ... not to mention, with the format-list or format-table cmdlet specified prior to the export. I have found the output seems to be all over the place without either cmdlet.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 3:52 PM
To: Blind sysadmins list
HelloRyan,
Just wondering, would it be possible to bring up a browser window, similar to the type of window used by the Jaws virtual viewer to display tabular content? It could be called by piping the output of commands that return objects into it.
I'm not sure if this would be achieveable but my thinking is that as the output of something such as get-ADGroupMember outputs objects, it would be possible to output those objects in a more readable format. Actually, Get-ADUser would be a better example.
Another suggestion that would make using a CLI so much easier. When I'm reading the output of Dir, I may not need the left most column or even any of the columns other than name. Yes. I know I can use dir -name so again, this is a bad example. A similar example is when looking at an IIS log file. I don't necessarily need the date and time. It would be great to be able to push thestart of the window over to the right to hide information on the left that I don't need. Therefore making it much easier to quickly read through the information that I actually need. I've had to resort to creating temporary dictionary items in Jaws to filter out dates and times when reading large files that couldn't be altered.
The problem that I'm trying to address is a console is a big blob of text. It would be nice to structure this a bit to increase the efficiency of screen reader users.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Sunday 11 December 2016 03:13
To: Blind sysadmins list
HelloRyan,
Just wondering, would it be possible to bring up a browser window, similar to the type of window used by the Jaws virtual viewer to display tabular content? It could be called by piping the output of commands that return objects into it.
I'm not sure if this would be achieveable but my thinking is that as the output of something such as get-ADGroupMember outputs objects, it would be possible to output those objects in a more readable format. Actually, Get-ADUser would be a better example.
Another suggestion that would make using a CLI so much easier. When I'm reading the output of Dir, I may not need the left most column or even any of the columns other than name. Yes. I know I can use dir -name so again, this is a bad example. A similar example is when looking at an IIS log file. I don't necessarily need the date and time. It would be great to be able to push thestart of the window over to the right to hide information on the left that I don't need. Therefore making it much easier to quickly read through the information that I actually need. I've had to resort to creating temporary dictionary items in Jaws to filter out dates and times when reading large files that couldn't be altered.
The problem that I'm trying to address is a console is a big blob of text. It would be nice to structure this a bit to increase the efficiency of screen reader users.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Sunday 11 December 2016 03:13
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hi Darragh and all,
I often have to look at very complex logs in my work with RHEL Linux and
Pacemaker clustering. I have always used some very simple JAWS scripts that
I wrote to help me. Basically, I use a braille display and if I press the
braille display key to go up by a line, my JAWS script switches into JAWS
cursor mode so I can review the whole screen but the key thing is that it
only reads the line to me in speech from the point on the line where the
braille cursor is through to the end of that line. This works really well
when reading logs that have all the date, time, host name and other repeated
info at the start. It would drive me mad to have to listen to that on every
line of a log I need to read but, with my simple scripts in place, I don't
have to. I only hear the important part of the info. Whilst doing this, I
can still see the date, time and the other repeated info on my braille
display, it just isn't spoken. I suggest you might want to try a similar
technique.
Cheers,
Phil.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins
[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of
Darragh Ó Héiligh
Sent: 11 December 2016 14:12
To: Blind sysadmins list
Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] commandline administration
HelloRyan,
Just wondering, would it be possible to bring up a browser window, similar
to the type of window used by the Jaws virtual viewer to display tabular
content? It could be called by piping the output of commands that return
objects into it.
I'm not sure if this would be achieveable but my thinking is that as the
output of something such as get-ADGroupMember outputs objects, it would be
possible to output those objects in a more readable format. Actually,
Get-ADUser would be a better example.
Another suggestion that would make using a CLI so much easier. When I'm
reading the output of Dir, I may not need the left most column or even any
of the columns other than name. Yes. I know I can use dir -name so again,
this is a bad example. A similar example is when looking at an IIS log
file. I don't necessarily need the date and time. It would be great to be
able to push thestart of the window over to the right to hide information on
the left that I don't need. Therefore making it much easier to quickly read
through the information that I actually need. I've had to resort to
creating temporary dictionary items in Jaws to filter out dates and times
when reading large files that couldn't be altered.
The problem that I'm trying to address is a console is a big blob of text.
It would be nice to structure this a bit to increase the efficiency of
screen reader users.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins
[mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of
Katherine Moss
Sent: Sunday 11 December 2016 03:13
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hi Darragh:
In many situations this would be possible and is actually possible today. There's a ConvertTo-HTML cmdlet that will take output from Powershell and create an HTML file that can be opened in any web browser. Any information that Powershell displays in tables will show up as an HTML table and can be read using the screen reader's table navigation commands, its quite handy. I hear you in log files, I'm sure you've read through SCCM log files so you know what I mean when I say how bad those are to read with a screen reader. If you can get the output in Powershell, you can use where-object to get some of what you need, this may help in some log file situations too if you can get Powershell to understand the data its reading in.
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 6:12 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hi Darragh:
In many situations this would be possible and is actually possible today. There's a ConvertTo-HTML cmdlet that will take output from Powershell and create an HTML file that can be opened in any web browser. Any information that Powershell displays in tables will show up as an HTML table and can be read using the screen reader's table navigation commands, its quite handy. I hear you in log files, I'm sure you've read through SCCM log files so you know what I mean when I say how bad those are to read with a screen reader. If you can get the output in Powershell, you can use where-object to get some of what you need, this may help in some log file situations too if you can get Powershell to understand the data its reading in.
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Darragh Ó Héiligh
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 6:12 AM
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hi,
I copy tabular data to the clipboard and paste it into something else to work with it.
Andrew.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins
Sent: 09 December 2016 19:19
To: Blind sysadmins list
Hello Ryan,
I have had issues using PowerShell ISE with Jaws. Do you happen to know if this is something that FS needs to fix or is it for MS to work on?
Specifically my issues are with character reading using the left and right arrows and back spacing.
I like the intellysense provided by PowerShell ISE so would consider using it more regularly than the standard PowerShell client.
Also, the command list is shown by default however I don't seem to be able to get into it with the keyboard. When I manage to get into it, Jaws becomes very unresponsive and I am unable to read the contents.
There is one thing I really miss in the CLI. But I have no idea how it could be done. When outputting a command that displays columns, it would be really nice to be able to read those columns more efficiently. The optimal of course would be to have jaws table navigation but I really don't know how that would be done. Considering that the columns are just spaces.
Take something as simple as dir for example.
Another thing that I find a little challenging is copying the output of the screen. Yes, I could pipe the commands into a text file but sometimes you just want to copy and paste everything from the screen. This is fine if you don't need to scroll back but scrolling back can be hit and miss.
Regards
Darragh
-----Original Message-----
From: Blind-sysadmins [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart via Blind-sysadmins
Sent: Friday 9 December 2016 00:53
To: Blind sysadmins list
participants (5)
-
Andrew Hodgson -
Darragh Ó Héiligh -
Katherine Moss -
Phil Rigby -
Ryan Shugart