Reminder: Coming Up on Main Menu in a Little Under 9 Hours - CAPTCHA!
Hello Everyone, This announcement represents a friendly reminder for all of you to listen to an important, two hour live Main Menu coming right up later today. Coming up on an exciting two hour live program, we hear from a panel of technology industry experts all about CAPTCHA (visual verification) and other forms of visual authentication, accessibility challenges to existing visual verification systems, the balance between human rights and security, existing solutions for providing reasonable accomodations to visual authentication and emerging accessibility solutions. We are proud to introduce an impressive panel of experts and their primary areas of focus: * Matt May from the Adobe Systems Accessibility Team will discuss his 2005 W3C note on the inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. * Luis von Ahn from ReCAPTCHA at Carnegie Mellon University will describe their accessible solution. * Steve Dispensa from PhoneFactor will tell us all about an innovative, telephone based two-factor authentication system. The accessibility of CAPTCHA (visual verification schemes on the web) and other similar forms of visual authentication is a topic of utmost importance to the blind, visually impaired and others with print reading disabilities. Real, universally accessible solutions are going to require significant amounts of effort, good will and out-of-the-box thinking. We encourage active participation by the blind community, members on all sides of the issue from the mainstream technology industry and those sighted people who care about what happens to us. Here is how to participate in the show: The number to call into the show is 866-400-5333. You may email your questions to: mainmenu@acbradio.org You may also interact with the show via MSN (Windows Live) Messenger. The MSN Messenger ID to add is: mainmenu@acbradio.org Would you like to interact with a group of Main Menu listeners about the topics heard on Main Menu and Main Menu Live? You can do this by joining the Main Menu Friends email list. The address to subscribe is: main-menu-subscribe@googlegroups.com Come join an already lively group of users. Would you like to subscribe to podcast feeds for Main Menu and Main Menu Live? The RSS feeds to add to your podcatching application are: Main Menu - http://www.acbradio.org/podcasts/mainmenu Main Menu Live - http://www.acbradio.org/podcasts/mainmenulive Main Menu can be heard on Tuesday evenings at 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific, and at 1 universal (GMT) on Wednesday mornings on the ACB Radio Main Stream channel. Follow this link to listen to the show: http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=8 Jeff Bishop and Darrell Shandrow The Main Menu Production Team
All, 1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking. 2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks. 3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered. Regards Sean Murphy
Hi, I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins All, 1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking. 2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks. 3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered. Regards Sean Murphy _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
Hi Andrew, Have you tried any of this Java stuff with Sun's Access Bridge and JAWS, or anything on the Linux side of the house? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi, I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins All, 1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking. 2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks. 3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered. Regards Sean Murphy _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hi, I use the Java access bridge with Jaws and the PDM (the software for managing firewalls). This can give me interesting stats about traffic etc coming in and out, which is not fully available in the CLI (as far as I know). Some of this stuff is working with the JAB installed, but the main issues I have is that Jaws doesn't always go in and out of forms mode correctly, and so when I press keys to enter in information, Jaws is attempting to move to different parts in the virtual viewer. I know I can turn this feature off globally, but not sure whether it can be done for a specific website. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Darrell Shandrow [mailto:darrell.shandrow@gmail.com] Sent: 28 May 2008 12:58 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi Andrew, Have you tried any of this Java stuff with Sun's Access Bridge and JAWS, or anything on the Linux side of the house? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi, I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins All, 1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking. 2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks. 3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered. Regards Sean Murphy _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
Hello Andrew, If you press shift+Jaws Key+v while on the web interface, you should find the "forms mode auto off" option. Adjust it, press enter and that setting will be saved specifically for that "site". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi, I use the Java access bridge with Jaws and the PDM (the software for managing firewalls). This can give me interesting stats about traffic etc coming in and out, which is not fully available in the CLI (as far as I know). Some of this stuff is working with the JAB installed, but the main issues I have is that Jaws doesn't always go in and out of forms mode correctly, and so when I press keys to enter in information, Jaws is attempting to move to different parts in the virtual viewer. I know I can turn this feature off globally, but not sure whether it can be done for a specific website. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Darrell Shandrow [mailto:darrell.shandrow@gmail.com] Sent: 28 May 2008 12:58 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi Andrew, Have you tried any of this Java stuff with Sun's Access Bridge and JAWS, or anything on the Linux side of the house? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Hi, I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable. Thanks. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins All, 1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking. 2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks. 3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered. Regards Sean Murphy _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Andrew, There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind. ?Sean
Hi, I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list. I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Andrew, There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind. ?Sean _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
Hi Andrew I have only recently joined this mailing list as I thought it would be helpful in finding out how other visually impaired people cope with computer networking. I was just wondering, where about in the UK do you live? I have been seriously thinking about doing a Microsoft or CISCO qualification for quite some time now and even did a short taster course at Portland college near Nottingham. Unfortunately they are not very well setup to cater for visually impaired students so that didn't really work out. Having worked as an electronics design engineer and also obtaining a degree in electronic engineering just over 10 years ago,I thought the best route to employment would be for me to get into networking. For those of us who are visually impaired such a career is obviously problematic, especially where practical skills are required. I do still have useful vision, but even so it's tough. I still require magnification and a screen reader in order to use a computer efficiently. The sort of work I used to do required a level of vision which I no longer possess. I can still use CAD software and that is still an option, but diagrams are always going to be difficult. Although I know network diagrams are not as complicated as schematics, they are still quite tricky to deal with. I would be interested to know which courses you have completed and where? I would also like to hear the views of other visually impaired people on here who are currently doing a course, or maybe even working in the field. Cheers Darren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list.
I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind.
?Sean
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
__________ NOD32 3144 (20080529) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Darren In my current role, I do not use any network diagrams to understand the network. In fact, this is not as important as some people want you to believe. Being able to read them does help. The company I currently work for, provides a managed WAN solution. We have direct access to all the routers we managed. The routers are all Linux based. Therefore, we can determine the structure of the network through the configurations. The new position I am moving to in the beginning of July. Is very different where they need to have network diagrams because they don't have direct access to the customer routers. I am currently trying to find a solution to this one. If you can read large print, then this simplifies the issue. I rely on speech or Braille. If the router is text based CLI, then there are no barriers I can see. Access to books where they explain the graphical networking concepts they portray is difficult without someone else explaining them. Sean number of networks they are responsable for. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Brewer" <darren.m.brewer@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi Andrew
I have only recently joined this mailing list as I thought it would be helpful in finding out how other visually impaired people cope with computer networking.
I was just wondering, where about in the UK do you live? I have been seriously thinking about doing a Microsoft or CISCO qualification for quite some time now and even did a short taster course at Portland college near Nottingham. Unfortunately they are not very well setup to cater for visually impaired students so that didn't really work out.
Having worked as an electronics design engineer and also obtaining a degree in electronic engineering just over 10 years ago,I thought the best route to employment would be for me to get into networking. For those of us who are visually impaired such a career is obviously problematic, especially where practical skills are required. I do still have useful vision, but even so it's tough. I still require magnification and a screen reader in order to use a computer efficiently.
The sort of work I used to do required a level of vision which I no longer possess. I can still use CAD software and that is still an option, but diagrams are always going to be difficult. Although I know network diagrams are not as complicated as schematics, they are still quite tricky to deal with.
I would be interested to know which courses you have completed and where?
I would also like to hear the views of other visually impaired people on here who are currently doing a course, or maybe even working in the field.
Cheers Darren.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list.
I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind.
?Sean
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
__________ NOD32 3144 (20080529) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hi, In my role I get away without network diagrams by doing as you suggest - reading the configs, looking at the systems, and seeing how they connect. I always think that it is better to do this anyway, as I have found diagrams in the past to be over simplified or inaccurate when looking at previous diagrams v looking at the actual bigger picture. I have also found that various people have different standards for diagrams, so there is no one size fits all approach, especially when working with several companies. I also ensure that I know how solutions fit in with each other, so if someone says that they have this particular piece of equipment, I know how it fits in with other bits they have, baring in mind the configuration may not be correct. I am investigating XML based diagrams in Visio, which looked at first as though I would be able to read the diagram using the XML fields. This has so far proved to be a bit unsuccessful, but I am not giving up just yet. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Sean Murphy Sent: 31 May 2008 13:49 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Darren In my current role, I do not use any network diagrams to understand the network. In fact, this is not as important as some people want you to believe. Being able to read them does help. The company I currently work for, provides a managed WAN solution. We have direct access to all the routers we managed. The routers are all Linux based. Therefore, we can determine the structure of the network through the configurations. The new position I am moving to in the beginning of July. Is very different where they need to have network diagrams because they don't have direct access to the customer routers. I am currently trying to find a solution to this one. If you can read large print, then this simplifies the issue. I rely on speech or Braille. If the router is text based CLI, then there are no barriers I can see. Access to books where they explain the graphical networking concepts they portray is difficult without someone else explaining them. Sean number of networks they are responsable for. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Brewer" <darren.m.brewer@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi Andrew
I have only recently joined this mailing list as I thought it would be
helpful in finding out how other visually impaired people cope with computer networking.
I was just wondering, where about in the UK do you live? I have been seriously thinking about doing a Microsoft or CISCO qualification for quite some time now and even did a short taster course at Portland college near Nottingham. Unfortunately they are not very well setup to cater for visually impaired students so that didn't really work out.
Having worked as an electronics design engineer and also obtaining a degree in electronic engineering just over 10 years ago,I thought the best route to employment would be for me to get into networking. For those of us who are visually impaired such a career is obviously problematic, especially where practical skills are required. I do still have useful
vision, but even so it's tough. I still require magnification and a screen reader in order to use a computer efficiently.
The sort of work I used to do required a level of vision which I no longer possess. I can still use CAD software and that is still an option, but
diagrams are always going to be difficult. Although I know network diagrams are not as complicated as schematics, they are still quite tricky to deal with.
I would be interested to know which courses you have completed and where?
I would also like to hear the views of other visually impaired people on here who are currently doing a course, or maybe even working in the field.
Cheers Darren.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list.
I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind.
?Sean
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
__________ NOD32 3144 (20080529) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Andrew, I have started to look at the DOM of Visio to see if this could be scripted with Jaws. At this point of time, I do not have any real idea if it is possible or not. There is a University student in Australia who has a program which works with Visio to convert diagrams into tactual Braille. I have not yet managed to get my hands on the program to see how useful it is or not. I have thought of writing a PERL or Ruby script to build a text based VI friendly map for the network. This is in a concept stage at present. There is a bit of information gathering required before I actually can create anything. The script would be for Cisco equipment. Regards Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <andrew@hodgsonfamily.org> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
In my role I get away without network diagrams by doing as you suggest - reading the configs, looking at the systems, and seeing how they connect. I always think that it is better to do this anyway, as I have found diagrams in the past to be over simplified or inaccurate when looking at previous diagrams v looking at the actual bigger picture.
I have also found that various people have different standards for diagrams, so there is no one size fits all approach, especially when working with several companies.
I also ensure that I know how solutions fit in with each other, so if someone says that they have this particular piece of equipment, I know how it fits in with other bits they have, baring in mind the configuration may not be correct.
I am investigating XML based diagrams in Visio, which looked at first as though I would be able to read the diagram using the XML fields. This has so far proved to be a bit unsuccessful, but I am not giving up just yet.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Sean Murphy Sent: 31 May 2008 13:49 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Darren
In my current role, I do not use any network diagrams to understand the network. In fact, this is not as important as some people want you to believe. Being able to read them does help.
The company I currently work for, provides a managed WAN solution. We have direct access to all the routers we managed. The routers are all Linux based. Therefore, we can determine the structure of the network through the configurations.
The new position I am moving to in the beginning of July. Is very different where they need to have network diagrams because they don't have direct access to the customer routers. I am currently trying to find a solution to this one. If you can read large print, then this simplifies the issue. I rely on speech or Braille.
If the router is text based CLI, then there are no barriers I can see.
Access to books where they explain the graphical networking concepts they portray is difficult without someone else explaining them.
Sean number of networks they are responsable for.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Brewer" <darren.m.brewer@blueyonder.co.uk> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi Andrew
I have only recently joined this mailing list as I thought it would be
helpful in finding out how other visually impaired people cope with computer networking.
I was just wondering, where about in the UK do you live? I have been seriously thinking about doing a Microsoft or CISCO qualification for quite some time now and even did a short taster course at Portland college near Nottingham. Unfortunately they are not very well setup to cater for visually impaired students so that didn't really work out.
Having worked as an electronics design engineer and also obtaining a degree in electronic engineering just over 10 years ago,I thought the best route to employment would be for me to get into networking. For those of us who are visually impaired such a career is obviously problematic, especially where practical skills are required. I do still have useful
vision, but even so it's tough. I still require magnification and a screen reader in order to use a computer efficiently.
The sort of work I used to do required a level of vision which I no longer possess. I can still use CAD software and that is still an option, but
diagrams are always going to be difficult. Although I know network diagrams are not as complicated as schematics, they are still quite tricky to deal with.
I would be interested to know which courses you have completed and where?
I would also like to hear the views of other visually impaired people on here who are currently doing a course, or maybe even working in the field.
Cheers Darren.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list.
I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind.
?Sean
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
__________ NOD32 3144 (20080529) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hi Andrew I have only recently joined this mailing list as I thought it would be helpful in finding out how other visually impaired people cope with computer networking. I was just wondering, where about in the UK do you live? I have been seriously thinking about doing a Microsoft or CISCO qualification for quite some time now and even did a short taster course at Portland college near Nottingham. Unfortunately they are not very well setup to cater for visually impaired students so that didn't really work out. Having worked as an electronics design engineer and also obtaining a degree in electronic engineering just over 10 years ago,I thought the best route to employment would be for me to get into networking. For those of us who are visually impaired such a career is obviously problematic, especially where practical skills are required. I do still have useful vision, but even so it's tough. I still require magnification and a screen reader in order to use a computer efficiently. The sort of work I used to do required a level of vision which I no longer possess. I can still use CAD software and that is still an option, but diagrams are always going to be difficult. Although I know network diagrams are not as complicated as schematics, they are still quite tricky to deal with. I would be interested to know which courses you have completed and where? I would also like to hear the views of other visually impaired people on here who are currently doing a course, or maybe even working in the field. Cheers Darren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I am not worried about the course, I did the course last year (though the exams will be retired from that at the end of this year). However, it is the exams that are the problem, but we went through this already on this list.
I am hoping to do the MS 2008 exams, my first hurdle is the exam centre I use has stopped doing MS exams because they are not a Prometric centre.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 30 May 2008 06:00 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
There is a CCNA course in Australia which is making the CCNA information accessible. The next version of the CCNA course has accessibility in mind. If you wish to learn more, than I can point you towards the person who you should talk too. t he course is being run by the Western Australian Association for the Blind.
?Sean
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
__________ NOD32 3144 (20080529) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Andrew, Thanks for the email. I like to promote CAVI who runs a CCNA course. Perform a search for CAVI and you will find them. They are based in Western Australia. If you find any tools in accessible. Then send your concerns to accessibility@cisco.com I recall seeing this on the www.cisco.com web site. I am also doing my CCNA and it would be good to compare notes. Any questions I have a good resource to find out the answers. Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable.
Thanks. Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
All,
1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking.
2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks.
3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered.
Regards Sean Murphy
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
don't bother with SDM, it's not that useful sited or otherwise. The CLI is perfectly fine. You can do everything you need to with the CLI including cert management and integrated management with your CA. If you have any questions post them to the list there are several network engineer types on this list. I can help you on the WAN side and I'm especially skilled with BGP if you run in to that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" <mhysnm1964@gmail.com> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins Andrew, Thanks for the email. I like to promote CAVI who runs a CCNA course. Perform a search for CAVI and you will find them. They are based in Western Australia. If you find any tools in accessible. Then send your concerns to accessibility@cisco.com I recall seeing this on the www.cisco.com web site. I am also doing my CCNA and it would be good to compare notes. Any questions I have a good resource to find out the answers. Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable.
Thanks. Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
All,
1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking.
2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks.
3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered.
Regards Sean Murphy
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hi, Yes, I know you can do everything via the CLI in the real world. But the CCNA course expects you to be aware and have used the SDM. Sean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" <scott@granados-llc.net> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
don't bother with SDM, it's not that useful sited or otherwise. The CLI is perfectly fine. You can do everything you need to with the CLI including cert management and integrated management with your CA. If you have any questions post them to the list there are several network engineer types on this list. I can help you on the WAN side and I'm especially skilled with BGP if you run in to that.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Murphy" <mhysnm1964@gmail.com> To: "Blind sysadmins list" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Andrew,
Thanks for the email. I like to promote CAVI who runs a CCNA course. Perform a search for CAVI and you will find them. They are based in Western Australia.
If you find any tools in accessible. Then send your concerns to accessibility@cisco.com I recall seeing this on the www.cisco.com web site.
I am also doing my CCNA and it would be good to compare notes. Any questions I have a good resource to find out the answers.
Sean
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" <Andrew.Hodgson@allpay.net> To: "blind-sysadmins" <blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
Hi,
I started doing the CCNA but fell down with the network diagrams. I am currently working with some Cisco kit using the CLI only - the GUI in most cases for the various components is using Java, so for example SDM, PDM etc is not that accessable.
Thanks. Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Sean Murphy [mailto:mhysnm1964@gmail.com] Sent: 29 May 2008 04:28 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Cisco Network Admins
All,
1. I am on the hunt for people who are doing their CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, wanting to get involved with Cisco networking.
2. Seeking people who are network engineers who are currently working in Cisco networks.
3. Wanting to get input from people on accessing network diagrams. What solutions people have discovered.
Regards Sean Murphy
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
Hi all I plan on undertaking a course at college which includes a module on Novell Enterprise Server, and I will need to use the command line in a virtual machine environment. Is there any way of making this accessible by speech? Otherwise I can use Zoomtext on the host operating system. Regards, Chris
Hi, Is this Novell Linux Enterprise Server, or some Netware? You may be able to start up the operating system, then use SSH to access the CLI. Andrew. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Legg [mailto:cdlegg@iinet.net.au] Sent: 12 August 2008 11:34 To: Blind sysadmins list; vip-l list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Novell command line accessibility Hi all I plan on undertaking a course at college which includes a module on Novell Enterprise Server, and I will need to use the command line in a virtual machine environment. Is there any way of making this accessible by speech? Otherwise I can use Zoomtext on the host operating system. Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
Novell OES 6.5. If it is possible to use SSH that would be ideal. Chris Andrew Hodgson wrote:
Hi,
Is this Novell Linux Enterprise Server, or some Netware? You may be able to start up the operating system, then use SSH to access the CLI.
Andrew.
-----Original Message----- From: Chris Legg [mailto:cdlegg@iinet.net.au] Sent: 12 August 2008 11:34 To: Blind sysadmins list; vip-l list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] Novell command line accessibility
Hi all
I plan on undertaking a course at college which includes a module on Novell Enterprise Server, and I will need to use the command line in a virtual machine environment. Is there any way of making this accessible by speech? Otherwise I can use Zoomtext on the host operating system.
Regards, Chris
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
-- allpay.net Limited, Fortis et Fides, Whitestone Business Park, Whitestone, Hereford, HR1 3SE. Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.
Telephone: 0870 243 3434, Fax: 0870 243 6041. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay.net Information Security Manager at the number above.
_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins
participants (7)
-
Andrew Hodgson -
Andrew Hodgson -
Chris Legg -
Darrell Shandrow -
Darren Brewer -
Scott Granados -
Sean Murphy