Actually, Java can cooperate well w/screenreaders if certain program classes are used. Access bridge might also help. Scott, u might wanna check--for example, my router has a web interface but also a cli. Unfortunately, whether we like it or whether we don't, most sighted folks like to point & click, & they are in the majority when it comes to marketing dollars spent. So guess who the companies are gonna cater to? On 8/4/09, Greg B. wrote:

I don't think it is the fact that the equipment has a web based front end, the problem is JAVA. JAVA is one of those things that just doesn't want to cooperate with screen readers.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:48 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this

totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level.

(even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers.

Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm)

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- Change the world--1 deed at a time Jackie McBride Check out my homepage at: www.abletec.serverheaven.net & please join my fight against breast cancer http://teamacs.acsevents.org/site/TR?px=1790196&pg=personal&fr_id=3489

True but I'm sorry if it's not a consumer router it doesn't need a graphical front end. Here's an example Say i want to code up a quick BGP configuration

From memory all I need to do is

router bgp abcd (my AS) no synchronization redistribute static route-map bgp-static redistribute connected route-map bgp-connected neighbor 10.18.1.2 remote defg neighbor 10.18.1.2 route-map full-routes out neighbor 10.18.1.2 route-map customer-routemap in exit ip prefix-list customer-list seq 5 permit 204.70.0.0/16 le 24 route-map customer-route-map perm 10 match ip address prefix-list customer-list set community abcd:115 etc. etc. That took me 20 to 30 seconds to rattle off on the top of my head. Go back to the graphical world where I'm clicking, filling in boxes, pointing and clicking some more, filling in more boxes, yada yada. It sucks especially for long projects. Or what about if I want to script something or still stranger maybe I want to use rancid to grab the configs. What about this maybe I want to use RPSL to build prefix filters? What then? Java is the biggest barrier to accessibility but the web UI is the biggest barrier to actually getting work done! Sorry for the rant but I've been fighting with an ASA5520 pair all day and joy of joys I have to now go make changes to a Netscreen pair which has an accessible but crappy UI. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg B." To: "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsin network equipment? I don't think it is the fact that the equipment has a web based front end, the problem is JAVA. JAVA is one of those things that just doesn't want to cooperate with screen readers. Greg B. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:48 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers. Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

So that's interesting? Which part of their device was accessible? Could you actually open a browser and control the set top box or were you dealing with a centrally hosted site from ATT that remotely provisioned your set top? I have a receiver that has a web front end (which I actually like) but haven't seen that in many devices. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsinnetwork equipment? Is there another way into the Uverse DVR boxes because they made their site totally inaccessible now for programming it when it used to be totally usable before. I practically came to depend on this for recording stuff on weekends or other times when I might not be around or listening to something online or whatever. If not, how hard is it to get a JFW script made so I can at least do the basics with it, set my shows to record, search for something, and delete old reruns that accumulate from doing series recording? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg B." To: "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsin network equipment?

I don't think it is the fact that the equipment has a web based front end, the problem is JAVA. JAVA is one of those things that just doesn't want to cooperate with screen readers.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:48 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this

totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level.

(even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers.

Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm)

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Do you have an SPDIF out that you can use? If you do and you have a TV / receiver that decodes SPDIF digital you should be good because that's a straight digital stream. I take a digital handoff from my dish receiver and drop it in to my receiver and the output is fantastic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend towebGUIsinnetwork equipment? Unfortunately, it's done at their site. I was looking for a workaround, and while I'd be at it if I could find a direct interface into it, to crank the maximum audio level it puts out because the TV won't go up any higher and the box is at maximum even with a brand new TV, so it's in the box or where they send it from, most likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend toweb GUIsinnetwork equipment?

So that's interesting? Which part of their device was accessible? Could you actually open a browser and control the set top box or were you dealing with a centrally hosted site from ATT that remotely provisioned your set top?

I have a receiver that has a web front end (which I actually like) but haven't seen that in many devices.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsinnetwork equipment?

Is there another way into the Uverse DVR boxes because they made their site totally inaccessible now for programming it when it used to be totally usable before. I practically came to depend on this for recording stuff on weekends or other times when I might not be around or listening to something online or whatever. If not, how hard is it to get a JFW script made so I can at least do the basics with it, set my shows to record, search for something, and delete old reruns that accumulate from doing series recording? Thanks.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg B." To: "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsin network equipment?

...

I don't think it is the fact that the equipment has a web based front end, the problem is JAVA. JAVA is one of those things that just doesn't want to cooperate with screen readers.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:48 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this

totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level.

(even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers.

Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm)

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Your sound card could take the SPDIF in and would only play the front 2 channels, you probably have an out for the center / back channels. If not you can do 2 speaker simulated surround or just listen to the front 2 which has all the audio anyway. Splicing introduces defects in the sound. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate thetrendtowebGUIsinnetwork equipment? Maybe that might work, but my TV only has output for that connection as far as I know. If it's an optical signal, my sound card on the computer could take it, not sure what it will do if surround is coming out of the box and the other speaker jacks aren't being used on the computer, maybe a couple splitters to combine the front and rear jacks together. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate thetrend towebGUIsinnetwork equipment?

Do you have an SPDIF out that you can use?

If you do and you have a TV / receiver that decodes SPDIF digital you should be good because that's a straight digital stream.

I take a digital handoff from my dish receiver and drop it in to my receiver and the output is fantastic.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend towebGUIsinnetwork equipment?

Unfortunately, it's done at their site. I was looking for a workaround, and while I'd be at it if I could find a direct interface into it, to crank the maximum audio level it puts out because the TV won't go up any higher and the box is at maximum even with a brand new TV, so it's in the box or where they send it from, most likely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend toweb GUIsinnetwork equipment?

...

So that's interesting? Which part of their device was accessible? Could you actually open a browser and control the set top box or were you dealing with a centrally hosted site from ATT that remotely provisioned your set top?

I have a receiver that has a web front end (which I actually like) but haven't seen that in many devices.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Harding" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsinnetwork equipment?

Is there another way into the Uverse DVR boxes because they made their site totally inaccessible now for programming it when it used to be totally usable before. I practically came to depend on this for recording stuff on weekends or other times when I might not be around or listening to something online or whatever. If not, how hard is it to get a JFW script made so I can at least do the basics with it, set my shows to record, search for something, and delete old reruns that accumulate from doing series recording? Thanks.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg B." To: "'Blind sysadmins list'" Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsin network equipment?

...

I don't think it is the fact that the equipment has a web based front end, the problem is JAVA. JAVA is one of those things that just doesn't want to cooperate with screen readers.

Greg B.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:48 PM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this

totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level.

(even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers.

Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm)

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

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Hi Andrew: I'm a little surprised the Cisco stuff is going webbie, most Cisco people I know love the IOS commandline, or perhaps the ASAs don't run IOS? Cisco products have had web UIs as long as I can remember, but I always remember them being secondary to the CLI. That said, our Cisco guy where I work swares by the web UIs whenever he can. Personally, so long as the UI is accessible, I don't really care if its web or CLI. I'm conserned about the move to Java as well, I think the key phrase is cross platform compatability, to grab all of those sysadmins sitting in front of MACs at work you know. All of our HP servers have these ILO cards which would really be cool to work with, if only the interface weren't Java. Window-Eyes had some reasonable Java support, but it was being done by a third party, not GW-Micro, and I've not seen any updates to it recently, not sure what's going on there. Almost more disturbing than Java is the Web 2.0 trend. My hope is screen readers will eventually be able to overcome this, but so far it looks like we have a long way to go. We recently purchased a product from VMWare called Lab Manager, which is an add-on to ESX that lets endusers quickly deploy and undeploy whole configurations of machines for testing software and other purposes. The UI for everything is this really fancy Web 2.0 application. Large parts are accessible, and again large parts aren't. For example, I can't use any combo box in the entire app, they're all custom designed combo boxes. I don't know what was wrong with the standard HTML combo box but hey. That's not the only case, the old ticketing system my prior employer used was really bad and difficult to follow. My current employer uses Heat which is much more accessible so that's good. But in my life, these Web 2.0 apps are almost more of an annoyance than Java. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:43 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi, ASA still has the CLI, but I do notice that some features are being farmed out to the GUI, and that a lot of the tutorials are showing the GUI rather than the CLI. I believe if you study for the exams, that you are still shown the CLI primarily. I find it more disturbing the proliferation of Java based admin tools on hardware, rather than the web interface themselves. A good accessible web interface is better than the Java stuff that is being shipped out by a lot of these manufacturers. At work, for example, I was evaluating a spam catch appliance that used a totally unnecessary Java front-end, making most of the config inaccessible. Java support is one thing I wish that screen reader manufacturers spent more time with, rather than small features like sound management, dictionary lookups and the like, because I am concerned that it is only going to get more widespread. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 04 August 2009 21:48 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers. Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi,

From what I've seen the basics are all ok in Cisco with the CLI, but if you want IPS or other extensions, they factor it out to a web GUI.

Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Shugart Sent: 05 August 2009 14:37 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi Andrew: I'm a little surprised the Cisco stuff is going webbie, most Cisco people I know love the IOS commandline, or perhaps the ASAs don't run IOS? Cisco products have had web UIs as long as I can remember, but I always remember them being secondary to the CLI. That said, our Cisco guy where I work swares by the web UIs whenever he can. Personally, so long as the UI is accessible, I don't really care if its web or CLI. I'm conserned about the move to Java as well, I think the key phrase is cross platform compatability, to grab all of those sysadmins sitting in front of MACs at work you know. All of our HP servers have these ILO cards which would really be cool to work with, if only the interface weren't Java. Window-Eyes had some reasonable Java support, but it was being done by a third party, not GW-Micro, and I've not seen any updates to it recently, not sure what's going on there. Almost more disturbing than Java is the Web 2.0 trend. My hope is screen readers will eventually be able to overcome this, but so far it looks like we have a long way to go. We recently purchased a product from VMWare called Lab Manager, which is an add-on to ESX that lets endusers quickly deploy and undeploy whole configurations of machines for testing software and other purposes. The UI for everything is this really fancy Web 2.0 application. Large parts are accessible, and again large parts aren't. For example, I can't use any combo box in the entire app, they're all custom designed combo boxes. I don't know what was wrong with the standard HTML combo box but hey. That's not the only case, the old ticketing system my prior employer used was really bad and difficult to follow. My current employer uses Heat which is much more accessible so that's good. But in my life, these Web 2.0 apps are almost more of an annoyance than Java. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:43 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi, ASA still has the CLI, but I do notice that some features are being farmed out to the GUI, and that a lot of the tutorials are showing the GUI rather than the CLI. I believe if you study for the exams, that you are still shown the CLI primarily. I find it more disturbing the proliferation of Java based admin tools on hardware, rather than the web interface themselves. A good accessible web interface is better than the Java stuff that is being shipped out by a lot of these manufacturers. At work, for example, I was evaluating a spam catch appliance that used a totally unnecessary Java front-end, making most of the config inaccessible. Java support is one thing I wish that screen reader manufacturers spent more time with, rather than small features like sound management, dictionary lookups and the like, because I am concerned that it is only going to get more widespread. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 04 August 2009 21:48 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers. Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Hi, It's the same here as well, I am the only person who goes into the ASA CLI, and usually that mucks up stuff that the GUI wants to do (because I use slightly different commands to do natting etc than the GUI does). The guys say that for very large deployments with hundreds of rules, different natting etc, that the GUI provides more tools (such as the rule simulator etc). Only issue I find is that it is a pane reordering ACLs in the CLI verses in the GUI they can be moved up and down with the arrows on the screen. This is why I don't do much Cisco stuff now and do mainly Windows admin (which seems to be introducing more with the CLI, though they haven't got a sensible remote access feature sorted yet). Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 05 August 2009 15:19 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? A cisco guy that likes the web UI, that's just not right.:) The ASA runs an IOS looking interface that has the Pix command subset. I don't know it just seems natural for me to do a config# no http enable I guess I need to go back to a shop that has all GSR and 7600 gear.:) At least I've never seen a backbone guy configure a BGP peer with a GUI. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Shugart" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi Andrew: I'm a little surprised the Cisco stuff is going webbie, most Cisco people I know love the IOS commandline, or perhaps the ASAs don't run IOS? Cisco products have had web UIs as long as I can remember, but I always remember them being secondary to the CLI. That said, our Cisco guy where I work swares by the web UIs whenever he can. Personally, so long as the UI is accessible, I don't really care if its web or CLI. I'm conserned about the move to Java as well, I think the key phrase is cross platform compatability, to grab all of those sysadmins sitting in front of MACs at work you know. All of our HP servers have these ILO cards which would really be cool to work with, if only the interface weren't Java. Window-Eyes had some reasonable Java support, but it was being done by a third party, not GW-Micro, and I've not seen any updates to it recently, not sure what's going on there. Almost more disturbing than Java is the Web 2.0 trend. My hope is screen readers will eventually be able to overcome this, but so far it looks like we have a long way to go. We recently purchased a product from VMWare called Lab Manager, which is an add-on to ESX that lets endusers quickly deploy and undeploy whole configurations of machines for testing software and other purposes. The UI for everything is this really fancy Web 2.0 application. Large parts are accessible, and again large parts aren't. For example, I can't use any combo box in the entire app, they're all custom designed combo boxes. I don't know what was wrong with the standard HTML combo box but hey. That's not the only case, the old ticketing system my prior employer used was really bad and difficult to follow. My current employer uses Heat which is much more accessible so that's good. But in my life, these Web 2.0 apps are almost more of an annoyance than Java. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:43 AM To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi, ASA still has the CLI, but I do notice that some features are being farmed out to the GUI, and that a lot of the tutorials are showing the GUI rather than the CLI. I believe if you study for the exams, that you are still shown the CLI primarily. I find it more disturbing the proliferation of Java based admin tools on hardware, rather than the web interface themselves. A good accessible web interface is better than the Java stuff that is being shipped out by a lot of these manufacturers. At work, for example, I was evaluating a spam catch appliance that used a totally unnecessary Java front-end, making most of the config inaccessible. Java support is one thing I wish that screen reader manufacturers spent more time with, rather than small features like sound management, dictionary lookups and the like, because I am concerned that it is only going to get more widespread. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 04 August 2009 21:48 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers. Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Have any of you got the Netbotz inferstructure server software ot work with Jaws? It looks like it's java based. I'll try the java access bridge shortly but I rairly have success with that. Thanks Darragh

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to address when I created the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. See http://www.iavit.org. I doubt the companies even thought about accessibility when creating their interfaces. I don't think they deliberately ignored accessibility. I think it never even occured to them. Accessibility is not on the radar screens for engineers and marketting people. It doesn't help when institutions that are supposed to be enforcing accessibility laws and regulations ignore them. I know at the University of Wisconsin, if I point out that the direction we are taking is inaccessible, it has next to no effect. For example, if an engineer has settled on a particular router to buy, the fact that the interface is inaccessible is meaningless. He's supposed to look for one that has an accessible interface and buy the inaccessible one only if no other routers fit the bill. But that never happens. So there is no penalty, except for the threat of lawsuits, for a company to make an inaccessible interface. Sighted people just do not understand the graveness of the situation. I'm not sure most blind sys admins understand it. When your company buys a router you can't access, the job of configuring it gets assigned to someone else. So fine, you think, I have plenty to do anyway. But then maybe they buy a vmware cluster and that interface is inaccessible. Pretty soon your job is to sit there for 8 hours waiting for someone to call to have their password reset. Then when layoffs come along, you're out. And that's fair. It's not discrimination because you are just not that important. I've seen this happen time and again to friends of mine. It almost happened to me. This is a very competitive business and you have to be the "go to guy" or your career is always in jeopardy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Granados" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIsin network equipment?

I totally agree.

Coyote Point's load balancers are another example of this Java maddness. I don't see why this trend is happening. The customers don't want it and it's impossible to script.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

Hi,

ASA still has the CLI, but I do notice that some features are being farmed out to the GUI, and that a lot of the tutorials are showing the GUI rather than the CLI. I believe if you study for the exams, that you are still shown the CLI primarily.

I find it more disturbing the proliferation of Java based admin tools on hardware, rather than the web interface themselves. A good accessible web interface is better than the Java stuff that is being shipped out by a lot of these manufacturers. At work, for example, I was evaluating a spam catch appliance that used a totally unnecessary Java front-end, making most of the config inaccessible.

Java support is one thing I wish that screen reader manufacturers spent more time with, rather than small features like sound management, dictionary lookups and the like, because I am concerned that it is only going to get more widespread.

Andrew.

Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer

Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net

Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary.

-----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 04 August 2009 21:48 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment?

I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers.

Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm)

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

-- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88.

Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net

This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above.

_______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

What about e-mailing the alerts so something like 4085551212@messaging.sprintpcs.com or what ever your carrier uses for a mail gateway address. You can also get an SMS feed dropped off over DS1 then install your own end router and terminate that to your server on it's own segment. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 5:13 AM Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] SMS alerts via What's up gold. Hello again, Do any of you have experience with configuring a system so that What's up gold can send alerts via SMS? This was done here about a year ago however as What's up gold 12.5 does not have built in functionality for SMS alerts a third party and very baddly documented and support add on was used. This system didn't last long before it failed due to problems with the add on. I've been asked to look at a new system. The What's up gold server is currently living virtually on an ESX server. The current version of ESX we are using does not support USB connectivity. The modem that we have here is some strange make. It's connectivity is USB based however it shows up in windows as a serial device. therefore, the standard USB to IP software will not work with it. I'm therefore on the hunt for something that is compatible with ESX however Ethernet may not be the best solution as the idea would be to make this non-dependent on the inferstructure so that it can provide alerts if the core goes down. That's unlikely but it's a requirement. Any ideas? Thanks Darragh _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

Thanks. Email would be out because it would depend on the web gateway. I'll look at the standalone segment idea. it would be messy in terms of rack space and cabling but it's a possibility worth looking at. Regards Darragh Ó Héiligh Members Service desk Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas, Fredrick Building, South Fredrick Street, Dublin2 Telephone: +353 (1) 618 4444 Email: darragh.oheiligh@oireachtas.ie Internet: http://www.oireachtas.ie "Scott Granados" Sent by: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org 06/08/2009 15:05 Please respond to Blind sysadmins list To "Blind sysadmins list" cc Subject Re: [Blind-sysadmins] SMS alerts via What's up gold. What about e-mailing the alerts so something like 4085551212@messaging.sprintpcs.com or what ever your carrier uses for a mail gateway address. You can also get an SMS feed dropped off over DS1 then install your own end router and terminate that to your server on it's own segment. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 5:13 AM Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] SMS alerts via What's up gold. Hello again, Do any of you have experience with configuring a system so that What's up gold can send alerts via SMS? This was done here about a year ago however as What's up gold 12.5 does not have built in functionality for SMS alerts a third party and very baddly documented and support add on was used. This system didn't last long before it failed due to problems with the add on. I've been asked to look at a new system. The What's up gold server is currently living virtually on an ESX server. The current version of ESX we are using does not support USB connectivity. The modem that we have here is some strange make. It's connectivity is USB based however it shows up in windows as a serial device. therefore, the standard USB to IP software will not work with it. I'm therefore on the hunt for something that is compatible with ESX however Ethernet may not be the best solution as the idea would be to make this non-dependent on the inferstructure so that it can provide alerts if the core goes down. That's unlikely but it's a requirement. Any ideas? Thanks Darragh _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins

I totally agree. Coyote Point's load balancers are another example of this Java maddness. I don't see why this trend is happening. The customers don't want it and it's impossible to script. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Hodgson" To: "Blind sysadmins list" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? Hi, ASA still has the CLI, but I do notice that some features are being farmed out to the GUI, and that a lot of the tutorials are showing the GUI rather than the CLI. I believe if you study for the exams, that you are still shown the CLI primarily. I find it more disturbing the proliferation of Java based admin tools on hardware, rather than the web interface themselves. A good accessible web interface is better than the Java stuff that is being shipped out by a lot of these manufacturers. At work, for example, I was evaluating a spam catch appliance that used a totally unnecessary Java front-end, making most of the config inaccessible. Java support is one thing I wish that screen reader manufacturers spent more time with, rather than small features like sound management, dictionary lookups and the like, because I am concerned that it is only going to get more widespread. Andrew. Andrew Hodgson Senior Systems Administrator/Projects Engineer Direct Line Tel: 01432 852332 Email: andrew.hodgson@allpay.net Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. -----Original Message----- From: blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org [mailto:blind-sysadmins-bounces@lists.hodgsonfamily.org] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: 04 August 2009 21:48 To: Blind sysadmins list Subject: [Blind-sysadmins] does anyone else hate the trend to web GUIs in network equipment? I'm a little disturbed by a trend in network hardware where everything has to have a web front end to configure. Even gear like the Cisco ASA has this totally inaccessible java based ASDM thingy that sucks on a whole new level. (even to sited users) What's happening to the command line? It's so much better and more efficient for working with network elements and frankly for servers. Everyone tell your Cisco reps that this is a bad thing. (tm) _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins -- allpay achieved PCI DSS and ISO 27001 certification in 2008 Registered in England No. 02933191. UK VAT Reg. No. 666 9148 88. Telephone: 0844 225 5729, Fax: 0844 557 8350. Website: www.allpay.net Email: enquiries@allpay.net This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the allpay Information Security Manager at the number above. _______________________________________________ Blind-sysadmins mailing list Blind-sysadmins@lists.hodgsonfamily.org http://lists.hodgsonfamily.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-sysadmins